forget it. This obviously has done no good, or you guys aren't reading the posts. Either way, im done argueing it. Spank, zap, and choke away. im dropping the topic and will just continue to educate myself. Yall can seek the knowlege yourself if you like, but im going to stop offering it.
I have avoided this thread for a long time, simply because there is no cut and dried answer. Dogs are as individual as people, also with a dog like jelly's that already has bad behavior, it's a lot harder to teach it how to stop something than it is to train it to just not do it in the first place. I had a springer that I swore when I got him I would never hit him, I never did. As punishment I would ignore him for a while, that dog turned out better than any I have ever worked with. My current dog is a wolf, I swore again that I would never hit her. Wolves are timid creatures and also very set in the heirarchy of the pack, with her all I have to do is stand over her and show dominance. However I could never turn her loose, she would run...get into the cows,take off for a day or two,and no amount of calling or coaxing would get her to listen. I bought a shock collar that has a 1/2 mile range because I wanted to be able to reach out and touch someone. The first time I tried it on myself..not too bad, more of a static shock. Anyway I put it on the dog, she ran, I called, she ignored,I called again and at the same time I hit the button. She somehow made the connection that I could still reach her so she listened. I had to do that about 4 times before she would come without the shock. I have never had to refresh her memory, she hasn't wore the collar for three years. I believe there is a time and a place for all humane treatment methods. I used the shock as a last resort, it worked. I don't believe in using them for general training but sometimes for a specific problem they have a use. I believe in positive reinforcement for 80% of training but there has to be negative to show that you don't approve of bad behavior. Even saying NO is negative. I believe that kids dogs and horses are all trained using similar methods. I wouldn't use a shock collar on my kids, but they have to have some negative stimuli or they know that they can get away with whatever they were doing. I agree with you Ooby, I don't believe in barbaric methods, I think patience is the key. I also never reward for bad behavior. But in the case of jelly's dog it came to her with the bad habits already ingrained. In a situation like that you can't realistically reward the dog whenever it isn't doing the offending thing. So a certain degree of negativity is called for. Shock collars, IMO are the most humane way of doing this. Choke chains, sticks, kicking, twisting ears are all barbaric, and abusive. My animals are my friends ( though they won't admit in in public) I don't want them hurt, I also don't want them do just be able to do whatever they want, that shows as much neglect as just chaining them up and never spending any time with them. This is a touchy subject, I don't want to ruffle feathers. I have seen the results of never hitting a dog, and it's fantastic. But I do believe that sometimes you have to take steps to eliminate bad habits. Rich
[glow=purple,2,300] I like that reply, Rich. I was really just looking for a different training method cause I get sick of the clicker. However, I really really like that reply. ;D [/glow]
Never settle.
"There's nothing like the feeling of knowing that you've made a difference in someone's life, even if that difference is a lifetime of nightmares and a fortune in therapy bills." - Marilyn Manson
Your welcome. I had a dog that killed chickens, I tried everything to get it to stop. My Dad finally told me to tie one of the dead chickens around his neck where he couldn't reach it and so it wouldn't come off. I did that and just left it there until it became chicken soup and slipped off on it's own. It worked, the dog wouldn't look at chickens after that. I guess there's always a different way to look at things. Rich
I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but it seems to me that there is a fundamental misunderatanding of "positive" reinforcement and "negative" reinforcement. Let me put this in the simplest terms possible: Positive reinforcement is- Adding a goody or taking away a baddy. Negative reinforcement is- Adding a baddy or taking away a goody. It isn't a matter of degrees. It's either positive or negative. If you with hold food (taking away a goody), that's negative reinforcement. If you give a food reward (adding a goody) that's positive reinforcement. Scolding your dog is punishment. So is hitting it. The three concepts are misunderstood. All are effective and they are used in all training.
Post by Master Yarak on Sept 20, 2004 10:51:35 GMT -5
Thanks Bob, That clarifies it well, should not been anymore misunderstanding about those three concepts. To train the sentry dogs they used to agitate them with rolled up burlap that would sure get them pissed off. It was not scolding or negative or positve. Once they started killing the burlap they did get rewarded so it became positive. Funny though, the dogs never liked burlap after that...Go figure. Yarak
Last Edit: Sept 21, 2004 0:24:45 GMT -5 by Master Yarak
If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music he hears, however measured or far away
[glow=purple,2,300]AHH! to many 'y' ending words! Now I am confused. nah jk. Cookie is getting better, I was going through our pictures, which reminded me of the good old days ( 3 years ago almost) where she tore everything, uncontrollable, and blah. So Now she listens, doesn't tare up everything. [/glow]
Never settle.
"There's nothing like the feeling of knowing that you've made a difference in someone's life, even if that difference is a lifetime of nightmares and a fortune in therapy bills." - Marilyn Manson
Post by Master Yarak on Sept 21, 2004 11:14:09 GMT -5
Eaten alive! Those dogs were amazing. All business. The GSD is formidable. He tells some pretty cool stories. Each dog very unique, I think it was unfortunate that when they retired them they would not give them to the handlers. Yarak
If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music he hears, however measured or far away
Interesting. I have a German Shepard that hates the color light grey. He was givin to me by a pigeon racer from Germany. The gentleman that gave him to me used to train dogs when he was younger in WWII. He used to be a boarder patrol and is great with dogs. This dog in particular (Nero) doesn't like the light grey because it was the color of the German soldiers uniforms. The gentleman that trained the dog ran from his duty as a soldier to the german army and fled to america. but while he was on the boarder (Nero's mother) saved his life more than once.
"You're a smart kid Johny, you really are, but as long as I'm around you'll only be second best." The Godfather