For everyone who doesnt want to have to remember their damn Sign on.. update their frigging profile.. answer any god dam questions just to view the thread.
Bison was just the animal available. Any thyroid will have the same effect; differing only in degree by the size for the most part. Bert spoke of "the kernel" that grows on the neck of a young buck goat. I imagine the younger animals would have "hotter" thyroids because they are still growing, but the "kernels" from any of the larger animals are pretty easy to get when they are being slaughtered (nobody else wants them).
As for the effect, look at the pictures of Billy Bob. Three weeks ago he had hardly dropped any body feathers. He was slowly and methodically working through the primaries, but the secondaries and tail were not going well. I gave him two glands three weeks ago, and last week he started dropping secondaries and body feathers and has accerated the molt on the primaries and tail.
What I want out of it is a well molted bird that will be ready to go for quail, rabbits, and pigeons in September. Considering that it takes seven weeks for a tiercel gos (depending on it's size, of course) to grow a tail feather, we probably won't get out as early as I'd like, but it will be sooner and he'll be cleaner molted than if I didn't use the thyrod.
If I were to give him two more glands next week, he would probably drop everything that hasn't been dropped so far. There is a cumulative effect with thyroid, and if you give too much too soon, you can end up with a naked bird! That's NOT a pretty sight! Not even any down..... But as I said, any feathers that have already been molted will remain.
So, the logic may be faulty, but I just want a well molted bird ready to hunt early in the season. BB is not an imprint, nor a PR bird. He is somewhere between and very uppity. If his weight isn't just right, he doesn't want to have anything to do with anybody. Being fat for molting, he was acting crazy and NOT molting well, so I dosed him.
Is there any side affect using thyroid? How much do you give them percisely?
I don't know of any side effects other than going naked. And when that happens, you just have to keep it in a small pen with low perches and perhaps with a heat pad available if it is too cool and a cool pack if it is too hot. Both should be covered so the bird doesn't get right up against it, but they will figure out what they need if it's available. It looks pretty gosh awful, but the feathers WILL grow back.
There is no "precise" amount, though there have been some studies on it in the past using thyroid powder or pills. Most vets don't like giving it, because they can't prescribe a known safe dose, but I just go by what I was taught as a wee lad and give two glands, followed a month later by another two if needed. Size of the bird and size and "hotness" of the glands determine the effect on the bird. I was told that two average cow size glands for a bird tha size of a female Cooper's and up will usually suffice. One gland for a smaller bird. And don't give more just because you don't notice anything happening; it takes a while to show.
You really DO NOT want a naked bird! They have no thermal regulation and they still believe they can fly..... Feather quality may also suffer, because it is then growing ALL it's feathers at once like an eyass but without the eyass's down, so it can suffer from heat/cold stress.
wheres moses when you need him :lol:
i could write what i know about raptor biolagy (if i could spell it) on the back of a stamp but are the effects similar to if humans supliment there bodys own thyroxin (thyroid hormone) at higher levels
in humans what you get is faster metabolism elivated heart rate ect
its been used for years for weight loss in athletes the down side is that any hormone like that added to the human body causes the gland that would normaly produse the hormone normaly to shut down so in humans there is a risk orthough a slight one that the thiroid is shut down perminently leaving you having to supliment thyroxin for life so if this is the case in humans will it carry over to its use in raptors
again this may have no bearing on its use in raptors and im not sujesting its a dangeros thing to do but im asuming the hormone in the thyryroid is speeding up the metabolism of the bird and the rate at wich it will moult
i could be wrong i normaly am :lol:
Andy.........
About a week after administration of sheep thyroid, according to Beebe. "The feathers start dropping so fast that dosages had to be interupted periodically to allow the regrowth of new plumage to catch up" He goes on to say "It results in the falconer being able to moult a bird in 120 days & to get a really clean, full moult even with the difficult European Sparrowhawk" Though he warns the reader that he disclaims any guaranteed results. Proper dosages have to be worked out as overdose of thyroid can result in shock accompanied by uncontrolled trembling.
Okay, you're kind of speaking in two different tenses here. First you said that about a week after administering a sheep thyroid, and then you said that the dosages needed to be interupted periodically.
What I said at the beginning of this thread was to give two glands; period! About two weeks later the feathers will start dropping. This first rapid molt will make the bird drop about half of it's feathers over a few weeks time.
THEN, about six weeks later give the bird another gland or two. That should take care of the rest of the feathers. Check out the first pictures I sent, the intermediate ones, and the latest ones. And check the dates on them as to when I gave glands and what happened afterwards. I gave two glands the first time and one the second, because there is a sort of an addative effect to them. Giving two glands the second time would have dropped the rest of the feathers all at the same time rather than spreading it out.
Giving glands daily for any period of time seems like it would/could be disasterous. I once gave a tiercel Cooper's two glands, didn't see any results in a week and a half, so I gave two more. He went NAKED in a matter of days! This IS potent stuff and needs to be used with a gentle hand!
As for it harming breeding ability; don't know but can check next spring. We'll be taking a semen sample anyway just to count swimmers and see how active they are.
Thyroxine is available in a purified form, easier to dose than raw thyroid itself. As a vet I would not feel safe to feed thyroid to a bird. There are indeed very important side effects that could happen if a bird is overdosed.
The fact that thyroid is shut down after a dose of T4 is true, but unlike the surrenal glands I've never heard that the shut down could be permanent or long-termed.
However, thyroxine has a lot of side effects beside that and feather loss. Thyroxine is a very potent heart stimulator: it increases the heart rate, the blood pressure and the oxygen consommation of the myocardium, but at the same time it decreases greatly the delivery of oxygen to the heart, increasing the risks of heart failure. The heart has to work very hard with no oxygen to feed it, very dangerous situation especially in an athlete, hunting bird.
It also increases dramatically the renal filtration rate, which in itself is good, but combined with a higher blood pressure, that can lead to renal failure. Renal failure will become evident after the withdrawal of the thyroxine, when the kidneys have no more support from the hormone to work properly, they can crash down.
Other complications are related to the increase in blood pressure, such as glaucoma and retinal detachment, both leading to blindness. Thromboembolism is another frequently encountered complication.
A dog treated with thyroxine will have periodic blood works to assess if we are overdosing it, and hyperthyroidism is one of the primary diseases of old cats. Not an hormone with which you want to mess in my opinion, not when you are fully informed about its physiological effects. Even though I have an immense respect for Beebe, I don't think his book can qualify as a medical book...
