To Chap or not to Chap

[harrishawker]

With SID my PRMRT starting to take an interest in Squirrels i have heard the Chap brigade and the anti-chap brigades opinions.

The chap brigade speaks for itself
The anti is that it restricts the birds movement making it more likely to get bitten and it bites the toes anyway .

Your views

[Falcon Boy]

Personally, i like the barrel style chaps over the skirted kind, reason being i think the skirted kind makes it so the hawk can't see where it puts its toes, while the barrel chaps protect the tarsus and the bird can see its toes.

[miket307]

Well I'm just a 1st year apprentice but hearing from others with squirrel hawking experience I went with a barrel style which doesn't have the solid "skirt" like the Gary Brewer style chaps. That way the hawk can see it's feet and what it's holding on to a little better and the squirrel still has something down there to bite on other then toes. Then again I haven't even taken my first squirrel yet but my sponsor and another experienced squirrel hawker like this style of chap. Tiercel78 gave me a pair of his old chaps and I used them to make the pattern I have.
That's Zach's PFRT from last season wearing some of his chaps. He now makes the fringe longer to extend out towards the end of the toes.

[Bob Dale]

Ask Yarak. Believe him. Then do what he says.

[tytan]

Do you think different types of chaps might work better with different birds? Like, depending on how the bird foots / binds one type of chap may work better than another?

sorry if this is a stupid question but it just popped into my head and I thought I would ask.

[Deleted]

Speaking from some experience, the bites my birds have had would not have been prevented by the large skirted chaps. The squirrel gets to the toes from underneath and the chaps don't cover that area. They also don't cover the rear toe. I agree with FB in that the skirt actually hinders the footing process. Double layer barrel chap to protect the leg is a fine way to go.

[Master Yarak]

Just prior to actually binding a RT rotates its head and feet.
The nictitating membrane also closes. So basically for the very last instant before impact the bird is blind. If I thought that by using chaps it hindered my birds hunting I simply would not use them. I have seen no evidence of that. If you were my apprentice and were hawking squirrels your bird would wear them. The squirrel grabs the first thing it can. The tarsus is high on the leg. I have seen bites there.
MOST everyone hits the foot or toes. I have not met anyone I trust more than Gary Brewer when it comes to hawking squirrels. DUH! I have resigned myself that some "get it" and some don't. EVERYONE on here should know where I stand regarding chaps and why. I advocate them for whatever amount of protection they offer. Do they prevent bites entirely...NO. Do they offer more protection than just a "barrel style"....Yes.
Each to there own. If someone comes along that killed as many with the same bird as I then I might be inclined to listen. I can only tell you what I have observed. The chaps are chewed on at the end of every season. Most bites fall on the skirt that extends over the toes.
Yarak

[Falcon Boy]

Perhaps we should evaluate how long a skirt we are talking about?
I have seen pictures of some that go clear to the actual talon on each toe, while others have been half the toe length. Personally i'd use the ones that cover half the toe length rather than all the way to the talon if i were to choose the skirted kind.

I do not think that nictitating membrane makes the bird blind, i was under the impression it is always over the eye while in flight?

wiki- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nictitating_membrane

The Nictitating membrane is a transparent or translucent third eyelid present in some animals that can be drawn across the eye for protection and to moisten the eye while also keeping visibility

wisegeek.com- www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-nictitating-membrane.htm

Many animals have a third eyelid called a nictitating membrane. This clear eyelid can be drawn across the eyeball for protection from debris, prey, or the dryness of air, similarly to regular eyelids. Reptiles, birds, sharks, and some mammals evolved this extra layer of protection to keep their eyes moist and clean while maintaining visibility.....
The owl, like other birds, closes its haw when flying at high speeds because the additional moisture improves their vision. Certain kinds of sharks called carchariniformes, also use nictitating membranes to keep from being stabbed by thrashing prey. Amphibious creatures such as alligators, crocodiles, and other reptiles use their third eyelid while hunting, or while not underwater.

[harrishawker]

I always protect my birds by ever means possible, i always use telemetry and give them a good diet and accommodation.

So , why should things change. If the chaps protect that good enough for me.

[Master Yarak]

Gee....I can't say I have ever seen a nictitating membrane used in flight. They are certainly translucent so some vision is retained. I guess I should not have been so literal. My bird certainly knows where her feet are going. I can only deduce that she either knows where her toes are or can see them. When she stoops on an animal on the ground, the rotation is apparent. She is headlong until the last instant. Heck, it looks like she going to hit it with her beak. Then she rotates, head goes back feet are thrown forward.
She flares while this is occurs but not much.

Now when chasing through the canopy this maneuver is far less pronounced. She throws just one foot out and she is almost never carrying great speed. She is indiscriminate on where she grabs it. Some do get away. She just does not have enough of the squirrel to hold on to. That happens rarely. As soon as she grabs it with one foot she nails it with the other. That one is the one they do not escape from. Yes, sometimes it hits the head. More often than not it binds to its mid-section.
Keep in mind the squirrel is twisting, biting and clawing doing everything it can to prevent this. If at some point anywhere during this process her footing was impaired or reduced the squirrel would get away....or at least many of them. They are tough to hold on to regardless.
She has lost a few on the ground struggling with them.
With nearly 600 in the bag only 13-20 individuals have made it free. I don't think she let them go they simply broke free. I cannot believe those were somehow chap related.
Yarak

[miket307]

yarak2 said:

Each to there own. If someone comes along that killed as many with the same bird as I then I might be inclined to listen.
Yarak

I think that only flying one bird makes that the best style for that one bird. If you had flown 10 birds then would you not have a better idea what worked across the board? I certainly respect your opinion and Gary Brewers but I just think that only having tested that style on one bird isn't a very good representation of the total population. There are birds with one eye that can take squirrels regularly but all that means is that particular bird has learned to overcome that obstacle.

I feel that using either style will help prevent bites but as to which is better? That may depend more on the individual bird.

I agree, each to there own.

I'm not speaking from experience and I want to make that clear. Yarak, however is. I just don't think what works for 1 bird with 600 kills works best for all birds regardless of headcount.

[Master Yarak]

I have to agree. At least to certain extent. A fox squirrel is a fox squirrel. Weather its caught in a Pine, Oak, Pecan or on the ground. They all use the same basic avoidance techniques. I will not say anything about flying Harris' on them. I have hawked them in 5 states. I have helped 4 of my own apprentices to catch them and a few that were not.
The ones that had a great squirrel bird were the ones that followed the program. That is more than one bird and more than one falconer. Combine that with the experience and tutoring of the likes of Gary and the evidence begins to mount. Based on that I do have a good idea of what works across the board.
Your point was well made and clearly written. It does provide another well thought out point of view.

I really want to provide the best information I can and not to convince or be "right". I have given a more objective thought about this subject. I can tell you that their are times when chaps do hinder. Leaf nests. The bird drives he feet into them. The umbrella of the chap is is pushed up high on the leg. The hole it has to make reduces the force of the strike. It also leaves the toes and the leg much more exposed. Add to that the bird is basically footing around without knowing exactly what position the squirrel is in and you see the problem.
So its not always wine and roses. We must decide for ourselves what we think is the best choice.
If your bird gets chewed up and you are not using chaps
that falls on you. If your bird gets chewed up wearing them you did all you could.
Yarak

[kenbro77]

This is just an opinion, we seem to be talking about barrel chaps better head count, or skirted chaps better protection. It seems like a no brainer to me. I use skirted chaps because head count means nothing to me, keeping my bird healthy is what important.

[Falcon Boy]

I don't use barrel chaps for headcount, i've heard of less bad bites with barrel chaps compared to skirted, hence why i like the bird to be able to see the toes

[Ryan]

yarak2 said:

Gee....I can't say I have ever seen a nictitating membrane used in flight.
Yarak

*I can't tell if you were being sarcasic or not, its hard to tell over a computer* If you weren't I just wanted to say something about this. I have read and heard from multiple people that peregrines use them in a stoop to protect the eye from debris. I know that this is different than a Red-Tail flying in the woods but the birds do use them.

Also, if I ever live somewhere that lends itself to squirrel hawking, which I don't know if I ever will, I will use what ever my sponsor tells me to, but after my apprenticeship will switch to skirted chaps because of how wide spread the success of protecting from bites is over many people, birds, and parts of the country.