Whoa training

[redearth]

It took me/us quite some time to find a falconry sponsor that lived fairly close. He has offered my wife and I great insight so far. We are planning to take "The Test" in the next few weeks. Hopefully we can get it done on the first go'round! I will gladly give back and offer any advice or information that has worked for me in the past with the dogs.

For what it's worth, we have a DK, a GSP and a Chesapeake Bay Retriever in the kennel. A far cry from what we used to carry when we trained for others. We are not going to incorporate the dogs with the birds now but it's on the agenda.

Years ago I attended a seminar given by Rick Smith. He and his father, Delmar, developed a training system called the Silent Command, if memory serves. He has since retired but I think his son is carrying on the legacy. I highly recommend it!

I have, over the years, used many of his ideas with a few twists.

This is going to take quite a few posts..... so bare with me.

First, I like to use different points on the body for different commands. bare in mind a dog pretty much has the attention and retention of a 4 year old child. treat them as such. Second.... a training collar in the hands of a level minded individual is invaluable..... otherwise it's useless!

Also..... I lived by this as a judge and a trainer..... Anyone can beat an animal into submission, very few can train one to do what we want! Your training methods are revealed by the dogs body language and demeanor!


Okay...... I will forge on in a bit!

[Ally]

Thank you for posting this. I have seen a lot of training videos and articles with dogs stretched out between a post and another long line to hold them still, and descriptions of hauling a dog up in the air with a sling to teach the command. I think these methods are outdated and unnecessary.

On the same line, a dog who is working to earn a reward will work much harder than one who is working to avoid a punishment. An e-collar is just insurance in case something goes wrong; the training absolutely has to be there first for it to be effective. Looking forward to hearing more thoughts. Thanks.

[redearth]

Sorry for the delay..... It's been a hectic few days.

Ally..... One of the training regiments you mentioned is the exact one I use.

Rick Smith's Whoa post is about the easiest and low pressure way to train a dog to stand still. All negativity is brought on by the dog and solved by their own accord.

It is not as bad as you would think. The initial pinch around the waist might cause a Little break down but seconds after, the training begins.

If someone wants to hear how this training proceeds I will gladly go into detail.

My theory on making a dog stand proud when you walk to them. Considering all the ground work is done properly. No yelling, no standing in an over powering body posture, approaching the dog from a viewable angle, etc....

Try not to pet your dog on the top of his head.
Firstly...he can't see your had and will automatically adjust so he can. Causing him to duck or lean.

Second.... His hearing is his second strongest sense...why tap him on the ears or cover them? Do it to yourself and tell me how it feels. Try rubbing your teenager on their head prior to leaving for school.... see how long that lasts before they duck and snap at ya!

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[redearth]

Again.. had to stop that last post short... darn customers keep coming in tot he shop!

When approaching your dog on the whoa command... I do this while having a 50 foot check cord clipped to the collar and a half hitch around his waist.

Stroke up the under side of his tail...to tease it up.

Stroke under his chin to slowly tease his head up.

Both while softly or quietly repeating your "Whoa" command.

Once he is "styled" up.... I lightly push down on his withers (shoulder blades) and repeat the command.

This done repeatedly will make the dog puff up like a body builder as you approach. The point being.... getting ready to be pumped on and brushed up. Works like a charm!

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[Ally]

I have to disagree on a few points then. I don't think a whoa post is necessary at all to teach a dog to freeze in place--It's a method that forces the dog into the position you want, rather than asking your dog to figure out what it is you're asking of them.
Additionally, if you want a cue to be powerful, you should not repeat it over and over and over again to the dog while you are teaching it--this does not teach your dog what "whoa" (or wait, etc.) means, it teaches the dog not to move as long as you are repeating yourself like a broken record. Ideally you should need only to give your cue one time, and your dog should wait for the release word or touch before moving. Example: If you are trying to teach a dog to sit and you are saying, "Sit, sit, sit, sit, sit," and on the fifth time you finally manage to lure him into the right position, all those times you said sit before he finally did it serve only to weaken the verbal cue.

There are multiple ways to train and multiple ways that work--just like there are a million ways to train a hawk. The whoa post has worked for thousands of dogs in the past, it is just not my preferred method of training.

[redearth]

I agree..... I slightly jumped ahead of myself.

I don't say a command until the dog is actually performing the task I am asking of him. Meaning once I apply the stimuli he reacts... I say the command once. They are only one the "whoa Post" a few times then it's yard work on a check cord.

I jumped ahead when I spoke about "Styling" them up. Once they know what whoa means, I perform my little motion mentioned above.

When I train dogs steady to wing, shot and fall.... I hardly speak the whoa command. I use a training collar around the waist. Very low stimuli until the dog learns to stand still no matter what happens in the field.

It's not for everyone.... It does sound rough when written, most are amazed when seeing it first hand on how light handed it is and how great it works.

I have tried many training methods in the past and have worked with many pro trainers. We all have variances on how to have the same end result. None are perfect or good for everyone. My way works well for me is all. I am just getting started in Falconry and it seems there are many ideas on how to get things done too. It's going to be an interesting adventure.

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[Falcon Boy]

May 9, 2014 16:29:42 GMT -5 redearth said:

We all have variances on how to have the same end result. None are perfect or good for everyone. My way works well for me is all. I am just getting started in Falconry and it seems there are many ideas on how to get things done too. It's going to be an interesting adventure.

P

You can say that again! Everyone's got their own way of doing things, I just find it amazing that folks can get similar results from drastically different techniques.

[Ally]

I had stuff written and it didn't post it...dang interwebs.

Agreed. Just like there are dozens of ways to train a hawk, and all of them work. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a sunshine-and-rainbows trainer but as falconers we train our birds with force-free methods because you can't introduce punishment to them or you will lose your bird. Dogs, who are motivated by more than just food, should be able to be handled the same way, at least in the majority. There are exceptions to every rule.

Building distraction levels and impulse control slowly, over time, without use of harsh consequences definitely takes longer, and I know that there are a lot of folks who don't want to or can't invest the amount of time it would take to achieve the results they want using those methods.

I have been toying with the idea of using wing-on-a-string as an extreme high-value reward for breaking off of an intense distraction (chasing a deer, etc.) but haven't tried it. Essentially I want to make a bird lure for the bird dog just like we use a lure for the hawk that is absolutely irresistible. No idea if it will work

[redearth]

The only problem I have seen with the wing on a string..... and this is depending on type of birddog, of course. Pointing, in my situation. Using this type of reward or training might cause a young dog to hunt with his eyes as well as his nose. Some pups will want to see their prize as well as smell. Fixable with a more mature dog.

We had one we had to work with at night.... Goofy SOB.

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