If you do freeloft or come to a situation where you have to do so, try using the inter-locking rubber floor mats. I have used Brewers method, and my RT has been freelofted from the beginning and her talons are nowhere near nubs. They are long and sharp as can be. Plus the rubber mats are very easy to clean. Migisi: Here is a link to some of the Brewer information. It is a decent read. I definitely do not agree with all Gary writes, but there is some really good info. Reading never hurt anyone. squirrelhawking.homestead.com/articleindex.html If anyone has any McElroy links, please send them my way.
Migisi when it comes to that survey I did, re-read my last post. I said it was "very" unscientific. I had little to no control over the people that filled out the survey and it was anonymous so I have no idea if they were falconers or not. Now I only published the survey to falconers and falconry communities so I'd assume that most of the people who responded were in fact falconers. Now based on that you might wonder why I even refer to it and so I'll tell you. I had a free form question that asked the respondent to describe their ideal tethering setup and in 70 responses I don't think I had more than 2 people agree on a safe setup. And these weren't little differences they were huge differences with many techniques that I would consider very dangerous. For example one falconer described tethering the bird using a 3 foot leash which is just asking for a broken leg or worse having the bird get tangled up and die.
Migisi what information would you provide on safe ways to tether a bird? You're taking this awfully personal. I'm not saying that your way is wrong, I'm just answering the original posters question to the best of my ability. And what might I ask is wrong with work done by falconers that get published as you seem to be implying. In your situation as a rehaber you no doubt have no choice but to tether your birds but it seem that your experience with tethering for rehab has colored your opinions about tethering for falconry.
Joby, dull talons are worth the risk when compared with broken legs. Dull talons don't happen over night so how did you allow it to get to that point without correcting your housing? Sounds more like a husbandry issue rather than freelofting that was at fault in your case Joby, just a guess though.
Ickus, I actually go one further then your approach. In my mews I have the interlocking foam mats as a base and then I cover that with two levels of carpet padding. My issues came as whenever he would hear the garage door open (my mews is in the corner of my garage) he would get on the floor and jump up on the door and scrape his talons on the door. Kinda like a dog scratches the door when they want in or out. After talking with the Coulsons, I decided to always tether him. In the off season I'll freloft, but not a bird that's at hunting weight. Just my 2 cents.
Snafu, Can't really say as I appreciate the tone of your reply. Kind of insinuating if you ask me. Actually, the dulling of talons can happen pretty quickly. Only over a couple of days in this case. I was feeding through a food chute when I wasn't flying him. Didn't have to check on his talons for a couple of days and seeing as I never had any problems with his talon wear during the off season I didn't think it was an issue. Plus, I'd never had a problem with talon wear on any of the other birds that I freelofted in this chamber. I'm not a firm believer in absolutes. This bird showed me "hole" in my system and I fixed it within moments of realizing it. The only problem is once a talon is dulled, it can be something that you'll fight for a while. I personally use low bow perches and I've never had any injuries with them. In fact, the Coulsons never freeloft their birds when they're at hunting weight because they say it can lead to more injuries. Every person has different approaches that work for them. Like I said, I don't believe in absolutes. I think one needs to use an appropriate blend for the bird. Won't say that I won't freeloft again, it just has to be a bird that I would trust with it. The bird I have now is pretty high strung for a harris (similar to "Nubs") and I just don't feel that she would do well freelofted.
Also, I don't think Migisi has anything against "published" falconers. I think she's just stating her opinion. That's her right as it is with everyone else here. She's had quite a few years of experience, more than you and I combined so I think it's unfair to say that her Rehab experience has jaded her.
I had little to no control over the people that filled out the survey... I have no idea if they were falconers or not. .... so I'd assume that most of the people who responded were in fact falconers.
Never assume anything! There are a lot of phonies on forums. My 10-year-old grandson could've answered your poll. Indeed, a very unscientific study which I would not use to validate whatever point I was trying to make.
ideal tethering setup and in 70 responses I don't think I had more than 2 people agree on a safe setup. And these weren't little differences they were huge differences with many techniques that I would consider very dangerous.
Given the variety of tethering set ups presented by the respondents, how many caused bird injuries? And was there a specific flaw in a particular set up which caused the most injuries - which could be publicized so injuries can be avoided?
For example one falconer described tethering the bird using a 3 foot leash which is just asking for a broken leg or worse having the bird get tangled up and die.
What experience do you base that opinion on?
Migisi what information would you provide on safe ways to tether a bird?
The information that I could provide to you would fall on deaf ears. You've already said you'll never tether a bird again. I won't waste my breath.
You know, I don't know what set up you had which might've caused your hawk's leg break. It appears to me that all you want to do is blame tethering in general for your hawk's injury - and get affirmation from other falconers that tethering is dangerous - rather than learn what YOU might've done wrong.
And what might I ask is wrong with work done by falconers that get published as you seem to be implying.
As far as I know, nothing is wrong with Gary or Harry's work. I never implied such. What I find disturbing is that so many newbies read a book or two, and all of a sudden THEY become experts on whatever topic. And they name-drop just to impress and convince everyone that they're right and everyone else is wrong. Like.... Gary said this, so it's gotta be falconry law. Or Harry wrote this, so it has to be done that way by everyone. They fly birds. They write books. Good for them. They are not the first and last word in everything falconry.
In your situation as a rehaber you no doubt have no choice but to tether your birds but it seem that your experience with tethering for rehab has colored your opinions about tethering for falconry.
You don't know me or my situation, and you have NO clue what I do. I don't tether rehab birds, Snafu. I free-loft them in chambers. You see.... I know how to do BOTH safely.
Joby, dull talons are worth the risk when compared with broken legs. Dull talons don't happen over night so how did you allow it to get to that point without correcting your housing? Sounds more like a husbandry issue rather than freelofting that was at fault in your case Joby, just a guess though.
An Apprentice I admonishing Joby. Your arrogance is showing, Snafu.
Migisi: Here is a link to some of the Brewer information. It is a decent read. I definitely do not agree with all Gary writes, but there is some really good info. Reading never hurt anyone.
Thanks for the link, Ikcus. I already have his book. Like you, I don't agree with everything written either (regardless of author).
he would get on the floor and jump up on the door and scrape his talons on the door. Kinda like a dog scratches the door when they want in or out. After talking with the Coulsons, I decided to always tether him. In the off season I'll freloft, but not a bird that's at hunting weight. Just my 2 cents.
Glad my girl has not figured that one out in the mew. She does pound the heck out of the GH like you state but being the GH is cloroplast I do not worry about dulling talons. In conclusion I think tethering or free lofting both need to be executed correctly for the circumstance\bird. As long as the bird is not in danger and it's well being is not being harmed, what does it matter? Now everyone play nice.
Given the variety of tethering set ups presented by the respondents, how many caused bird injuries? And was there a specific flaw in a particular set up which caused the most injuries - which could be publicized so injuries can be avoided?
There was no consensus on what caused injury nor a pattern that could be identified in regards to what caused leg breaks. Most leg breaks that result from tethering happen in the top 1/3 of the Tibia according the the literature that my vet gave me and of the 2 tethered leg breaks I've seen both occurred in that same place. Now the 2nd kind of break commonly seen in tethered raptors is a kind of twisting fracture that usually is caused by the bird becoming tangled in it's equipment and breaking the leg while trying to extricate itself.
For example one falconer described tethering the bird using a 3 foot leash which is just asking for a broken leg or worse having the bird get tangled up and die.
What experience do you base that opinion on?
Common sense says that the longer the leash the faster the bird can get going before being brought to a stop from the leash thus more force will be exerted on the birds legs. Shorter == safer Not to mention the dangers of a bird getting tangled up in a leash of that length. I've had my bird get tangled in a 16'' leash I'd hate to imagine what it would look like with a 3 footer.
The information that I could provide to you would fall on deaf ears. You've already said you'll never tether a bird again. I won't waste my breath.
That may or may not be the case but as this is a forum for learning perhaps you'd like to enlighten everyone that is reading this post. Honestly I'd love to hear about your setups I've seen 2 different setups cause broken legs one was a bow perch on capet on top of rubber mats with a 16'' tie off. (PMRT) The other was a shelf perch 6'' off the ground with a 16'' tie off on grass. Both setups resulted in the same break of the Tibia in similar locations. I'm in this sport for the long term so again I'd love your take on these setups and I'd love to learn "the right way" to do it.
What I find disturbing is that so many newbies read a book or two, and all of a sudden THEY become experts on whatever topic.
My signature provides my experience which everyone knows is limited having only been in the sport for 2 years. That said you are the one being arrogant here. You are asserting that you know the right way to do something and that none of the books we've all read has the answer and you are unwilling to share that answer on this forum. I am not an expert I am sharing my experience and what I've learned thus far which is more than you've done in this instance.
They are not the first and last word in everything falconry.
No they are not the first or last of anything. They do represent the current thinking regarding the subject in question though, thus why I mentioned them. I didn't say Beebe or Webster because while experts they haven't taken free lofting as far as Gary Brewer and McElroy have.
You don't know me or my situation, and you have NO clue what I do.
I researched you before I posted. From what I can tell you and your husband have a tremendous amount of falconry experience over 60 years combined.
I know how to do BOTH safely
I wasn't implying that you don't know how to do both safely. I was making an assumption based on rehabers that I have known and that was my mistake, my apologies.
An Apprentice I admonishing Joby. Your arrogance is showing, Snafu.
Actually I'm a General just haven't updated that in over 2 years. Yes I guess I was admonishing Joby and as you read in his post he admitted that it was a husbandry issue. Though he downplayed his fault in the matter if he had been handling his bird every day he would have noticed the issue. That said I would have personally fallen victim the same as Joby as I too tend to feed through a chute in the summer and not handle my bird every day. So based on that I should apologize to Joby because it was rather hypocritical of me to rag him as like I said I would have done the same thing. Sorry Joby.
Now if we could hear your tethering techniques Misigi I'd love to be educated on the right way to do it.
How many birds do you have at SOAR? I'd assume that you had to tether a few rehab birds the idea that they are all freelofted makes me want to see your facilities, they must be impressive.
Last Edit: Jan 2, 2009 19:13:26 GMT -5 by snafu918
I'd assume that you had to tether a few rehab birds the idea that they are all freelofted makes me want to see your facilities, they must be impressive.
You don't tether rehab birds. For the same reason you don't tether a falconry bird right off the trap(unless it's hooded). Rehab birds don't get manned, they are kept as wild as possible for release. Rehab birds that need to be handled daily for any reason (like medications or young that can't eat on their own yet) are kept in small kennels like at a vet until regular handling is no longer necessary, and then free lofted to retone flight muscles before release.
Last Edit: Jan 3, 2009 0:44:36 GMT -5 by borderhawk
There was no consensus on what caused injury nor a pattern that could be identified in regards to what caused leg breaks.
Unfortunate that the survey couldn't identify a specific problem area - so we all could learn something positive from it. Another interesting survey might be the species more prone to leg breaks when tethered. I can't recall hearing about any falcons that suffered breaks from being tethered. And I've seen plenty that bate hard. Anyone?
Most leg breaks that result from tethering happen in the top 1/3 of the Tibia according the the literature that my vet gave me and of the 2 tethered leg breaks I've seen both occurred in that same place.
I would agree with that literature. It's what I've seen too. Does your vet have any literature on common limb breaks while in free-loft? My own observations - most wing breaks happened when a wing extended through vertical bars, or when caught between a perch and wall. And some talon loss, leg/foot injuries when talons got caught in seams, knot holes, and gaps between wall panels, rafters, door jambs, and the like. My point.... stuff happens regardless of how a bird may be housed.
Now the 2nd kind of break commonly seen in tethered raptors is a kind of twisting fracture that usually is caused by the bird becoming tangled in it's equipment and breaking the leg while trying to extricate itself.
Hairline spiral fractures have also been attributed to jump ups done improperly (Raptor Center confirmed). The fractures went unnoticed until the bird was tethered later. The falconers blamed the break on tethering, however, the patients' histories confirmed that jump ups were a common factor. I can't argue that birds don't break legs while tethered. But legs break in the field while hawking, and in free-flight chambers, and other situations.
Interestingly, there is a direct correlation between spontaneous leg breaks and calcium deficiency. In three falconry patients I rehabbed, the falconers had fed only rabbit meat for several weeks prior to the break ... no bone or whole animal. They'd been using the rabbit-meat-only diet to regulate their hawk's weight for hunting. Just FYI.
Common sense says that the longer the leash the faster the bird can get going before being brought to a stop from the leash thus more force will be exerted on the birds legs. Shorter == safer ...
One must consider the height of the perch, whether it's stationary or it swivels, how spacious the mews hence the necessary leash length to prevent wings touching wire/wall, etc. The perch and leash must match the space available, and consider the behavior of the bird as well.
Short is NOT always safer. Example: The hawk is on a 3ft. high stationary wide-ring perch. Her leash is 16 inches. She bates over the ring, the leash catches top-dead-center over the ring, and she hangs upsidedown. Unless the ring swivels out of the way, allowing the leash to drop off the ring, the short leash is an accident waiting to happen. Hanging can be fatal.
Now put that hawk in a spacious mews, and on a low-to-the-ground swivel ring perch. Give her ample leash length so she can reach the ground IF by some quirk (Murphy's Law) it does get hung up over the top. She may bend a tail feather, but she won't thrash around and break bones, or hang and die.
Not to mention the dangers of a bird getting tangled up in a leash of that length. I've had my bird get tangled in a 16'' leash I'd hate to imagine what it would look like with a 3 footer.
Again, there are other factors to consider. What material is the leash, and how thin and light weight is it? Does the falconer use a leash extender - which prevents the swivel from constantly flipping through the jesses when the bird returns to the perch - thus snarling jess and leash into a twisted ball? Where is the leash tie ring located on the perch? Does the perch's spike have a rotating sleeve to prevent the leash from twisting tightly around the spike?
I've seen 2 different setups cause broken legs one was a bow perch on capet on top of rubber mats with a 16'' tie off. (PMRT) The other was a shelf perch 6'' off the ground with a 16'' tie off on grass. Both setups resulted in the same break of the Tibia in similar locations.
We never use bows or shelf perches as permanent perches. If we tether a bird to a bow, it's for temporary perching only and the bird is supervised and/or hooded. We sometimes use bows in our free-flight chambers for additional perching, but birds aren't tethered to them.
You are asserting that you know the right way to do something...
I DO know the right way to tether a bird. I've had many years of experience doing it. You can't argue with success.
and that none of the books we've all read has the answer and you are unwilling to share that answer on this forum.
If I wrote a book on how to properly and safely tether birds, and you read it, you'd then have to decide whether my book or Gary's is the right answer. In fact, we BOTH are right i.e. Gary's right in free-lofting, I'm right in tethering. But, when it all boils down, neither Gary or I can say what will work best for YOUR bird and situation. Only you can know that. I'm telling you that you can do BOTH successfully. You just have to learn how. If tethering doesn't work for the bird you have now, it may work great for your next. Same regarding free-lofting. Keep an open mind.
No they are not the first or last of anything. They do represent the current thinking regarding the subject in question though, thus why I mentioned them. I didn't say Beebe or Webster because while experts they haven't taken free lofting as far as Gary Brewer and McElroy have.
It's good to know current thinking. But new isn't always best. It's also good to know traditional methods and thinking too. Read em all, Snafu.
How many birds do you have at SOAR? I'd assume that you had to tether a few rehab birds the idea that they are all freelofted makes me want to see your facilities, they must be impressive.
The number of rehab birds changes daily. We do not tether rehab birds -- unless they are deemed unreleasable and we're manning/training them for placement with another educator.
While we are independent 'back-yarders', we don't have the typical old barn and baling wire set up. We built a bird of prey center - complete with mews for our 8 program birds, free-flight chambers, smaller flight cages, clinic, learning center and classroom, a hacking house, etc. Our facilities are designed and set up (but smaller in scale) like the World Center in Boise and Cornell's old raptor facilities in Ithica NY. They're nice.
I guess it really depends on the bird, area, and task at hand. I've read that Kessies can get pretty out of hand when free lofting during hunteing season, and though it would burn more calories and in return get more falconing, that in an enclosed area could equal feather damage, etc. I would probably keep it teathered when in a mew, but free loft in most other places.
I guess it really depends on the bird, area, and task at hand. I've read that Kessies can get pretty out of hand when free lofting during hunteing season, and though it would burn more calories and in return get more falconing, that in an enclosed area could equal feather damage, etc. I would probably keep it teathered when in a mew, but free loft in most other places.
Just to clarify. Kurohyo, when you say,"it will burn more calories and in return get more falconing." Do you mean it will be more fit? I don't think falconing is a word.
And I think you got the last part of your post a little mixed up. When in the mew, it is more likely for the bird to be free lofted and tethered most other places vs. tethered in the mew and free lofting most other places (e.i. garage, backyard, basement).
BTW, from reading this thread, it sounds like there may be a line of fire.? Maybe?
I've read that Kessies can get pretty out of hand when free lofting during hunteing season, and though it would burn more calories and in return get more falconing,
The biggest issue I had with free-lofting a K was that it was hard to enter/leave the mews on a daily basis without the K flying past my head/body and out the door. Ks are fast and smart. Luckily I had a double door system to prevent permanent escape. Free-lofting really didn't have a big impact on my Ks weight reduction - except when it got cold out. Then, I worried about too much and fast loss. That forced me to enter/leave the mews more often daily to weigh him (increasing the risk of escape even more). After free-lofting one K, I just found it far more convenient and safe (and less stress on me) to keep my falconry Ks tethered.
that in an enclosed area could equal feather damage, etc.
Anything amiss - even slightly - with a K's housing or equipment can result in feather damage, especially to their long fragile tail feathers. It takes some finesse to manage them without damage.
I would probably keep it teathered when in a mew, but free loft in most other places.
Not sure what you mean. Free-loft in what other places?
Gbird = As it starts losing weight. If it loses weight faster then it in turn wants more food, in which you can hunt more than when not in hunting season (why they call it hunting season I'm guessing) And in my mind hawking = hawks, so falconing = falcons. Stupid mistake
Migi = such as weathering yard, in an open space, or when in a large open room.
Gbird = As it starts losing weight. If it loses weight faster then it in turn wants more food, in which you can hunt more than when not in hunting season (why they call it hunting season I'm guessing) And in my mind hawking = hawks, so falconing = falcons. Stupid mistake
Migi = such as weathering yard, in an open space, or when in a large open room.
open mouth and insert foot.
you get more HUNTS, not falconing.
you dont free loft in a weathering yard, your not supposed to atleast, the type of fencing could do WAY more damage to their feathers than a mews ever could.
and if you free loft a bird in open space then you are free FLYING your bird.