I am appaled by this law why should a 18 year old be anymore fit for a hawk then a 16 year old! the only thing that happens is you in colledge and you do even have a bird. Whats the point of keeping us little people apprientices for 4 years??? when at 16 we could actually own a Bird! maybe the senate will be able to do somthign usful other than talk about war, economy, and healthcare and help the important people... us faloners! why do we bother having a democracy when they put age restrictions on sports for NO REASON lol now I am going to have a redtail for 4 years and then go to colledge and not be able to have a beatiful merlin or goshhawk till I am , assuming i dont go for a masters... Like 22!!! thats inpossible unless i live at home and play halo 24/7 P: Good lord why bother with a law liek that isn't this sport restricted enough... 14+ a million sheets of paperwork the right mews the right equips. a test! do not get me rong I love this sport I love raptors and i don't want these birds being mishandled but i will complain about that law. I would hope that some sense would coem into lawmakers, they are right to protect tis species thourouly and i am glad they do.
"The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph." -Thomas Paine
"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? -Marianne Williamson
ok... well were you a apprientice? when you were 14? did you go through it? if you didnt then obviously you are a older falconer who thinks is was very hard. i have never been a falconer but why should it matter, a harris hawk would be better to use than a passage RT as far as i have read.why should there be a restriction or age past 16 to become a general some adults act more like 13 than 45 years old less responsible, buissier and possibly under the influence of alcohol and far more dangerous to the bird and them selfes. whats the difference from a 16-18 maturity wise?
"The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph." -Thomas Paine
"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? -Marianne Williamson
Post by HawkingRage on Jan 11, 2007 18:40:54 GMT -5
where are you from cjinx?
In all honesty a Harris is not better than a RedTail. they both have thier pros and cons. For one i know a few people with harris that cant hunt this past few weeks as it has been too cold for the bird. RedTails can deal with 20 below if needed. Red tails are superior on squirels. THe pure power alone is worth the rt. you want to become a general before you are 18 just to have a harris or some other "FANCIER" bird. what is your prey?
Id agree with Jay about the ages. I think 14 is too young for most, now there are exceptions. Maturity for one reason is why. You have your whole life ahead of you, really there is not alot of time between 18 and 22, trust me. I think that your apprentiship should end after you are 18 when you can be seen as an adult legaly and after that only when your sponsor decides that you are ready. saying that i mean that if your sponsor thinks it should take 5 years to be an apprentice so be it.
Instead of being pissed off why don you look at the reasons that they make the laws the way they do. How are they to know you arent some punk kid wanting to get into this and then killing 3 birds before you get your general at to which you can then get a gos, harris or merlin? I think if you kill a bird and a necropsy is done and found to be your fault, you should have to start your time over.
ok... well were you a apprientice? when you were 14? did you go through it? if you didnt then obviously you are a older falconer who thinks is was very hard. i have never been a falconer but why should it matter, a harris hawk would be better to use than a passage RT as far as i have read.why should there be a restriction or age past 16 to become a general some adults act more like 13 than 45 years old less responsible, buissier and possibly under the influence of alcohol and far more dangerous to the bird and them selfes. whats the difference from a 16-18 maturity wise?
I started as an apprentice when I was 14. I know how it goes.
Post by Master Yarak on Jan 11, 2007 18:44:04 GMT -5
Do you drive? Do you have a job to pay for equipment, food, vet bills and anything else like maybe permit fees? Do you think you have the commitment and discipline to be a great falconer? Do you think most 14 year olds do? Where did you read that a Harris' Hawk is a better bird for an apprentice than a Red-Tail? I knew a 14 year old who was a great falconer. He was happy to wait 4 years to get his General permit. He just enjoyed having a bird. He was exceptional in many ways. In fact I spoke to a 15 year old yesterday from this forum and as first impressions over the phone go I was IMPRESSED. I predict that should he pursue this sport he will be a great addition.
Its not just about age it also has to do with experience in life, maturity and other factors. Be thankful you can even get a bird at 14. Sometime in the future it will be 12...now isn't that GREAT! Yarak
If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music he hears, however measured or far away
to tell you the truth, the law before getting your app. license IMO is 16, its ridiculously hard to get started at 14.
now, i totally agree with being 18. why? because who would want to sell a 16 year old a European goshawk? or a white phase gyrfalcon. or other expensive birds? no-one.
Yarak, they ARE making that law? 12 years old?? thats rediculus...
who said you cant have a bird through college? i know a couple people that have birds through college! look at FB, he has 2 birds, and is in college, (and he has a gf).
what difference is there from 16-18 maturity wise?
OK, heres an example, go look at me about 1.5 years ago from now, when i first joined this forum, hell, ask Yarak. see how much Ive matured since then.
cjinx said:
now I am going to have a redtail for 4 years and then go to colledge and not be able to have a beatiful merlin or goshhawk till I am
oor... a kestrel, or a RSH if you are in the right state.
here is what bothers me about you Cjinx: you seem to only want a certain bird, great falconers are made because they don't care what they fly, they fly what best fits quarry, what best fits land, what best fits their lifestyles. i have also met quite a few people that fly the birds that they don't want, but end up changing their minds after seeing them.
Cjinx, id advise you wait a year or two, go hunting, watch others, get a dog, learn from people. and keep reading up. you want to rush into a sport that you shouldn't rush into, a couple people have rushed, and made it. but others have rushed, and just dropped it. i recently talked to a master near me, that washed out 2 apprentices because they where unwilling to fly the red tail because they didn't like how it looked.
Trust me, its alot easier to learn basic tasks by watching and helping, rather then getting a crash course when you get your first bird.
cjinx said:
Good lord why bother with a law liek that isn't this sport restricted enough... 14+ a million sheets of paperwork the right mews the right equips. a test! do not get me rong I love this sport I love raptors and i don't want these birds being mishandled but i will complain about that law.
why have the 14+million sheets of paperwork etc? well... to keep the birds from being mishandled and keep our sport safe! you fail to see why it is so important to keep the laws the way they are. why do we have to build a mew? why do we have to have the proper equipment? keep it in the right shape? and the test?
why the test? the test? because of the simple fact, they don't want someone joining the sport that has no idea what they are doing, and dint know the laws.
go read up, go learn, go absorb, sponge mode is a good mode to be in right now.
and about democracy in the law of age restrictions? because old time hunters have seen the immaturity of this country and don't want to hand say, a hunting rifle, or shotgun, into the hands of an immature 10 year old and take him hunting.
and old time falconers have seen what happens to birds that are mishandled, mis-trained, and mis-kept by people that don't know what they are doing, and too young to understand.
if you think I'm wrong about immaturity, go look around in your local HIGH SCHOOL, or junior high. Ive seen 14 year olds laugh at the word "poop" Ive seen 15 year old rich kids that haven't done a second of labor in their life break down in tears when their moms and dads would make them load the dishwasher. Ive seen people break down over the smallest things due to immaturity.
yarak2 said:
I knew a 14 year old who was a great falconer. He was happy to wait 4 years to get his General permit. He just enjoyed having a bird.
THAT imo is the main thing, enjoying having a bird. it doesn't matter what it is, but its a bird, and you can practice falconry. it shouldn't matter if you want a merlin. i want a ferrug, but im not whining i have to wait 2+ if not more years for one?
Post by Falcon Boy on Jan 11, 2007 20:44:33 GMT -5
Damn Matt, great post. Here's my two cents on it-
I started falconry the day I turned 14, that is, at least that is the day my permit arrived. True falconry did not start for a few months when I took my first head of game, WITH A REDTAIL. At first I thought the laws were stupid, I thought that apprentices should be allowed Harris’s, etc, that is, until I actually started practicing falconry rather than bird keeping. Once I realized how much I wanted to hunt my bird, I realized the reasons behind the age restrictions and bird choice. Simply put, almost all apprentices don't have the time, patience, or most of all, understanding of bird behavior to fly an accipiter or longwing. As an apprentice for four years, I flew a couple redtails, a kestrel, and a redshoulder. I flew every species available to me, and was successful with two of them .
Moral of the story? The first year or two you will probably hate the rules and regs. You may think your redtail is boring and ugly. Your main goal was to have a bird in the mew and you will probably just hack through the time with it. Your goal is to get the bird back at the end of the hunt, and if you catch something, well hey it’s a plus. Your second season you will realize that catching game is fun, a hell of a lot of fun. You will hopefully realize what a hunting partner you have. The redtail is a very formidable predator in most environments, and can take a wide range of prey. Hopefully it will not take you two seasons to figure that out.
My personal feelings are the new regs are bullSH!@t. I do not feel that in ANY case a 12 year old should be permitted a bird, even if their parent is a falconer. I also feel that unless you have a driver’s license, you should not be granted a falconry license. There is simply too much driving involved to depend on others. I relied on others my first two years, but was blessed with a mom who stays home and 3000 acres of hunting fields immediately behind my house. I got lucky. Personally, I feel the regs should be re-written as such-
Apprentice- 16, valid drivers license, redtail only unless the sponsor lives within 20miles and is very involved.
2nd year apprentice- same as normal regs bird wise
3rd and 4th year apprentices same as normal regs bird wise.
I also do not believe that Harris’s should be allowed to apprentices, unless they are taken as a passage, and even then I strongly feel they should not be allowed. Harris’s are known for responding at weights higher than their true flying weight. From what I have read and observed, they will fly perfectly, but then “check off” at the last moment, or be choosy on slips, or maybe not chase at all, just respond to the fist and lure perfectly. They are great at deceiving falconers all over the world, and I feel as though they would train the apprentice, not the other way around.
I am now a general level and a freshman in college. I have a full class load, a redtail, a red shoulder, a girlfriend, and I hit the gym daily. I have very few friends. I have a truck that gets me from a to b. I have no night life. I fly my birds, and when I’m not flying, I'm sleeping or at the gym. Sometimes I study. The birds’ welfare come first. The birds HAVE to come first if you want to be a successful falconer. Luckily I have a girlfriend that is fully understanding of that and fully agrees.
I once dreamed of flying gos's and merlins and all those "general" level birds as you do. Now that I am a general, I have gone to the APPRENTICE birds. Why? Redtails are easy to handle, free to acquire, and f**king great hunters who never cease to amaze me. I have a redshoulder too. Why? Honestly, curiosity. I am fascinated by the species, but most of all, they are free and relatively easy to trap if you know what you’re looking for. End of the line is, after four years, you will realize what a good thing you are working with [the redtail]. If you still desire another bird when you turn general, then by all means, try it. The thing you have to remember is this - THE BIRD COMES FIRST. In college, I would be hard pressed to fly a long wing. I would be hard-pressed to fly most anything I would have to pay for. I can't keep a kestrel in my dorm room either. I took the risk of telling my college I would not attend their school unless I was given a room for my birds. Luckily they granted that wish and my birds have their own room where they can see the campus all day.
What I am trying to say is this - You might not like the laws and you probably think they are unfair. Once you start to practice falconry, TRUE falconry where your bird is hunted 4 or more times a week and taking game consistently, you will realize why the regs are as they are. Most of all, as you begin to understand the birds and their psychology; you will realize why the laws are in place. My redshoulder is unlike any bird I have ever worked with. To put it quite frankly, she is a nut job most of the time. Little things scare the balls out of her. If a dog sits down, she will freak, while another time the dog will do the exact same thing she is unphased. I am yearning to understand this species and feel I am just at the peak of beginning to.
Falcon Boy Apprentice Falconry Administrator
Ethics make the individual, not the other way around.
Here's what I have to say as I am currently going through this process. I see the need for the laws. Make it hard and it will keep the uncommited and uninformed out of the sport. I kinda wish that they would do that with rifle hunting cause right now any idiot can pick up a gun and go tromping through the woods which is why I almost hunt private land exclusively.
As far as the maturity comment made by Matt.......I'm 27 and still laugh at the word poop and I'm married with three kids.
I kinda giggled while typing it as a matter of fact ;D
Last Edit: Jan 11, 2007 22:42:19 GMT -5 by robruger1
Life is hard, it's harder when your stupid. - John Wayne
I have to say that I think I'll always have a RT in one of my chambers. They are just amazingly resilient birds and fantastic hunters. If it's squirrel's you're going for Cjinx and you're up in northern NY you'll be mostly hunting the big northern Fox and Grey squirrels. There is no better, safer or fun to watch bird to fly on them than a nice sized hen RT. I hawk with a guy here in Ohio who routinely flies his hen HH on the big northern varieties of squirrels and while it is fun to watch, it has taken more abuse and injuries than my sponsor's hen RT. I'm having a blast this year and it's partly because I'm flying a RT. -Joe
I agree with Joby! I will always have a RT, even if it means I can't commit to another bird after getting my general permit. There are people that only want to fly falcons, or goshawks, or whatever, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with RTs, and there are also many people that never want to quit flying them. They are great birds and to complain about HAVING to fly a certain bird for four whole years shows some level of immaturity or misunderstanding of falconry. Many preapprentices can learn a ton about the joy of seeing any raptor fly and build maturity at the same time by going out with falconers and watching and helping their birds hunt. If you feel there is something wrong with RTs, go with someone who flies one. Over and over again, until you can understand what everyone has been saying here: It is not what kind of bird you fly, but the fact that you can interact with the bird in the way falconers can, and hunt with it, that is what makes people become and continue being falconers.
Aurelia - General I ------------------------------------------- "It's not about the style of the flight; it's about the blood on the glove"
i agree... i started out by seeing RTs own rabbits, and then went to see goshawks and falcons, then, i saw at the WFA winter meet, some good old fashion rabbit hawkin with RTs and dogs, i can seriously say, i will never ever want to leave that aspect to go fly something else. Goshawks on pheasants may be fun and all, but there is nothing like an RT cruising over a briar patch silently and then do a wing over and the eEEEEEEHHH of a rabbit.
You misunder stood me about the redtail. I do not think they are ugly at all, no bird is but maybe a change in quarry feel nice? you could fly a Kestrel and hey you might get some pigeons! Hey I read your arguments and I think that my post was somwhat over done and you guys got me thinking. I am perhaps becuase i am not a faconer some of the things I wrought in that thread are incorrect and I was being hipocritical. I agree with you rage about the restarting your time, but as I have heard a milion time apprientices make mistakes. and if one was to make a fatal error then the State DEC or whatevers in your state, should consalt your sponsor and evaluate your license. This should go for all term of licenses, the point of falconry in my eyes is to preserve these beutifual Raptors who have a mortality rate in the wild that is like 50% of them die as young! when a falconer takes a eyeass (I think thats the term for young one) out of the wild he is saving the life of a bird who has a 50/50 chance of Survival! and making it a strong healthy member of society.
that post was extreme and i rebuk most of the thing i said, obviosly somones going to post Well you can't rebuck problem with your bird! I understand that and I am prepared to do my best as a human being to preserve this sport to do my best to give falconry a good name
sincerely, Cjinx
"The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph." -Thomas Paine
"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? -Marianne Williamson
Post by HawkingRage on Jan 12, 2007 16:36:26 GMT -5
thats good to hear cjinx. you still have learning to do and you will see your still needing alot more when you take your test. kestrals dont do pigeons. ill never say never but i think ill be backed up on this one. that and 5050 is wrong. there are alot of documentations that show that if 10 birds are born in a year only 2 will be left after thier first year. and after 5 years only one will be left if that.