i shrug it off because even you said that u took the pigeons that had only been in the freezer for 2 weeks, i still beleive in the 1 month or more kills off the stuff, now if you said u got it from the pigeons that hadbeen in there for more than 4 weeks than i would consider it, but it was only 2 weeks. also it depends on the conditions of where you hunt, where i go, is where we have caught piigeons before at night and kept in captivity and non had died, so i think the environment plays a role into how healthy the pigeons are.
Post by dirthawker on Nov 29, 2007 20:16:20 GMT -5
now matt if cameron wants to play russian roulette with his bird and kill it then let him that just tells us about the type of falconer that he is and will be. I myself don't feed pigeon at all even captive breed. they are worse than rats in my opinion a petri dish of crap that should have been eradicated instead of breed. there are two things that I always say (better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it) and ( better safe than sorry). there is to many things that can go wrong with feeding pigeon.
Your being an a$$ about me playing rusian roulette, if you want to start this then ill start pointing out everything that you are doing that i think is bad, there are many falconers that fly at pigeons, so now you are judgeing them all, we will see in a months time if my bird gets anything, also if you look in many falconry books, rats are up there being very good with many different nuitrents that are needed.
Falconry Basics, By Tony Hall,
Rats and Mice, "Except in volume, these species are more or less identical in food value. Rats in particular tend to be smelly, and some birds find tham unpalatable. but both species provide high quality diet and they are useful especially during the moult or convalescene after illness.
Rats are the second highest, Quail being the highest.
Also for you information i dont feed the pigeons from the barns that i dont know. the barn that i am currently hunting i know that the pigeons are healthy. if i go to a new barn i wont be feeding the pigeons, just getting rid of them.
There is no harm in feeding pigeon that has been kept in captivity and medicated. That takes care of any possible diseases. I know a falconer who has been at this for 25 years and he's been into pigeons even longer and uses his pigeons for training of his longwings and does allow them to eat them. In all that time he has NEVER had his birds get sick because his pigeons food and water are medicated.
Feeding wild pigeon is a different story no matter what barn they came from. They are still wild and have a good chance of having diseases that can be passed to your bird. Don't be a tightwad, purchase, breed, or find some other money saving yet SAFE way to feed your bird. I have found a farmer using craigslist that is allowing me to hunt his land for squirrels and is going to let me build a starling trap in his cherry orchard. Try something like that, it is mutually beneficial for both parties, I get free high quality food and he gets higher crop yield. Kill the pigeons, have fun but please for the sake of your bird don't let it eat them. Don't make your bird pay a price for you to get an education.
Life is hard, it's harder when your stupid. - John Wayne
Post by okiereddirthawker on Nov 29, 2007 22:18:01 GMT -5
I agree. If you want to hawk then fine just don't feed them.
This is what I got about herpes in avian species. We learn more about the pathogenisity and how to prevent & treat more than how long it would live in frozen tissues. Herpes is an enveloped virus that is a relatively labile virus - sensitive to lipid solvents – inactivated by disinfectants heat, desiccation. Gallid herpesvirus 1 -Avian infectious laryngotracheitis-Alphaherpesvirus Gallid herpesvirus 2 & 3-Marek's disease -Gammaherpesvirus Anatid herpesvirus 1 -Duck viral enteritis/Duck plague Alphaherpesvirus Psittacid herpesvirus-1 Parrot - Pacheco’s disease Alphaherpesvirus AND LOTS OF OTHERS!!! I looked through my books and don’t find any reference to how long it would survive in frozen tissue. I have also posed this question to a virologist @ OSU so I should have a pretty good answer soon.
Regardless it is a death sentence if your bird eats one with herpes. There is a 90% mortality with this virus in birds! You have NO Idea if the wild birds that you are hunting are infected or not.
Health....... is the slowest possible rate at which you can die! That's Dr. Okiereddirthawker!
So far i havent fed any pigeon to my bird, i have plenty of rat to last me about a year so i should be good, and am continuing to get more each semester. a couple falconers up here have fed wild pigeon to their birds, and non of them have ever gotten sick. they also have been doing this for 15+ years,
i would really like to hear what the virulugist has to say about it though, that was a good idea to post the question on that board.
Post by okiereddirthawker on Nov 30, 2007 9:10:12 GMT -5
My virologist is out of town until Tuesday I will speak to him then, but he did let me know "the chance of transmission is good since virus is resistant when in tissue especially when frozen.
Health....... is the slowest possible rate at which you can die! That's Dr. Okiereddirthawker!
Post by Master Yarak on Nov 30, 2007 12:35:10 GMT -5
Gee I know a falconer that has been flying across a major highway surrounded by transformers. He has been flying that way for 82 years. His bird never got hit by a car or electrocuted. Yarak
Last Edit: Nov 30, 2007 12:50:48 GMT -5 by Master Yarak
If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music he hears, however measured or far away
LOL Yarak. Discussions like this come down to the risk/reward ratio. There's risk waking up and walking out your door in the morning. We just calculate that walking out the door is a necessary risk in comparison to the reward (picking up more toilet paper from the grocery store). I'm very interested to hear the answer too. My guess is (and this is a guess) that freezing won't kill the virus. Most things at the bacteria or parasite level don't die from cold. They may go dormant, but they don't die. Heat, however, is different. What if everyone just cooks up some little pigeon burgers (well done, of course)? Remember, I'm just here to give good ideas. ;D
Post by dirthawker on Nov 30, 2007 19:37:38 GMT -5
cameron8808 said:
Your being an a$$ about me playing rusian roulette, if you want to start this then ill start pointing out everything that you are doing that i think is bad, there are many falconers that fly at pigeons, so now you are judgeing them all, we will see in a months time if my bird gets anything, also if you look in many falconry books, rats are up there being very good with many different nuitrents that are needed.
just because nothing has happened so far doesn't mean that it wont and it is a higher probability with pigeon that it will. so yes it is playing Russian roulette. captive breed pigeons that are medicated is a different story but wild birds are a problem. I would rather feed rat than pigeon just because of the risk so ya rat is a better food source with less risk even if they are nasty.
as far as you telling me what you think that I do wrong go ahead. but look at my birds and how they behave as well as hunt. look at the care that I show towards them. if you want come out and fly with me some time and we will see. so in the end if you feel froggy jump. you are a first year apprentice kid that is trying to say that the risks of poor food choice is OK. there is always going to be some problems with the birds in our care but it is best to try to minimize them if we can.
Rebecca Brunotte said this on the Hunting Hawks Yahoo group about frounce, keeping in mind that the Brunotte's are both respected and excellent falconers I personally will take this as an authoritative answer. Freezing doesn't guarantee that you killed the bacteria.
There are over six strains of frounce so your bid can get frounce more then once and not all strains are killed buy the cold or freezing. I had frounce in my pigeons one year and froze the birds after they died. When I went to dispose of them I decided to look at it under the microscope. The frounce was very active once it warmed up and still alive.
Post by okiereddirthawker on Dec 5, 2007 11:20:02 GMT -5
I spoke with my virologist today. He said, like i said, that we don't really do studies on how long that viruses and bacteria survive in a frozen state. That being said, viruses after being frozen in tissues for years can replicate when exposed to living tissues. We are talking 10 or more years. I am not going into virus life cycles but a virus is basically a protein capsule surrounding DNA/RNA. It is not "alive" and must have a host cell to reproduce. They are liable to heat, disinfectants, dessication, but not necessarily cold.
There again the bottom line is "if you didn't breed it don't feed it". Even then you could have problems unless you have a closed house breeding facility.
Health....... is the slowest possible rate at which you can die! That's Dr. Okiereddirthawker!