Ok round two, because i just spent about 30min typing this up, just to hit post and lose all my data. This is a modified version of what i posted on another forum
For sake of argument, i'm going to assume you're going to use the "launcher Leash" from northwoods falconry [ www.northwoodsfalconry.com/index.cgi?rm=showitem&itemid=HA-005&cat= ]. Lets also say you have a male redtail, that flies at a nice even 30oz. The leash weighs 12oz. That is 40% of the birds body weight. How do you think that birds legs would feel? The strain doesn't just hit the legs themselves, it also hits the ankles, knees, and hips of the bird. Legs are strong, joints are not. How many humans dislocate hips and shoulders?
Hips are what i'd be worried about. Has the bird been holding onto game, or does he keep losing the quarry? I have heard of birds doing the splits a few times and losing quarry for the next few days, so there has been correlation between doing the splits [one jess in and the bird bates, bird hangs by one jess] and losing rabbits and such, and that is with just their own body weight. Imagine if it was 140% of their bodyweight....
I weigh 163.5lbs. 40% of my body weight is 65.4lbs if my math is correct. The numbers seem a bit insane with the same proportion of weight for a human do they not? It's essentially the same movement for a human as a bird flying with a "launcher leash", except humans pubis goes forwards instead of a birds which goes backwards. Yes I know what you're going to say, birds don't pump their legs to move forward. Agreed, but they still have that same weight pulling on their legs the entire time, and to land they must thrust all that weight forward, then have it jerk to a stop when they land.
An Allosaurus pelvic girdle, a saurisian dinosaur, from which birds evolved [essentially the same as modern birds] photo from-http://cal.man.ac.uk/student_projects/2003/mnzo0mlk/lectur54.gif
Human pelvic girdle- from-http://biology.ucf.edu/%7Elogiudice/zoo3713/Files/image399.gif
As you can see there is not a huge difference between the two. If it would bring you physical discomfort, why do it to your bird?
I somewhat see the reasonings behind jump ups. Sure if you can't fly your bird do jump ups. Other than wasting a lot of time in my mind, I have no real scientific objections to it as far as being unhealthy for the bird. But adding weights to a birds legs seems unneeded and possibly even dangerous IMO. It would most certainly do damage to a human's joints....
Falcon Boy Apprentice Falconry Administrator
Ethics make the individual, not the other way around.
not only that, but you really dont need it. for a while when it was raining for weeks at a time, i got her doing massive jump ups, this is how Steve Layman explained it to me, yet ill change it to fit my personal way.
i stand almost 6' tall ok? i hold my glove about 5' feet from the ground when i do jump ups. i can get Kit doing about... 50-75 jump ups a day if shes at weight, ive gotten 100 a few times but it requires smaller tidbits (what i do, is call to the glove without a tidbit, or every 10 i give a tidbit on the glove, but to get her to go to the ground, i flick a small tidbit).
my bird does a vertical climb, back to the fist from the ground. do the math, lets take the smaller numbers, 5'*50=250' of VERTICAL climbing. not only that, but also add the muscle she uses to slow herself down when shes dropping on the tidbit, yes, she pumps her wings to slow herself, thats alot of force of wind on her muscles shes taking to not fall like a rock.
lets look at 75 jumps. 5'*75=375' and finally, 100 jumps is 5*100=500'
between 250' and 500' of PURE VERTICAL FLYING.
there really is no need to weight them, just get the bird going. it took me the better part of a week to get Kit to do 50.
but, screw jump ups, go fly the bird, the only reason i was doing them was because it was pouring so bad my dog didnt want ot get off the porch to piss.
Jump ups as you said are vertical flights. How often does your bird fly straight up? Not often, so why build those muscles?
The very best way, in my opinion, to get a bird fit is to get out and pursue quarry multiple times a week showing the bird lots of slips. Nothing can replace hunting!
Falcon Boy Apprentice Falconry Administrator
Ethics make the individual, not the other way around.
Post by Master Yarak on Jan 8, 2008 18:35:39 GMT -5
I guess one should think about the environment you fly in. My bird pumps vertically multiple times every hunt. Maybe as much as 15 ft. Usually its not that far. Most are straight up at the 4-6 ft range. Yarak
If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music he hears, however measured or far away
I guess one should think about the environment you fly in. My bird pumps vertically multiple times every hunt. Maybe as much as 15 ft. Usually its not that far. Most are straight up at the 4-6 ft range. Yarak
I apologize, i had meant to include "with the exception of squirrel hawking" in my post, but had deleted it on accident when re-reading it.
Falcon Boy Apprentice Falconry Administrator
Ethics make the individual, not the other way around.
Post by okiereddirthawker on Jan 8, 2008 19:04:34 GMT -5
When doing jump ups, the pectoralis muscles contract to pull the wings down. When flying on game the muscles are the same the only difference is the angle of attack of the wing. While I agree that flying daily is the best way to keep your hunting well, I would add that doing jump ups will build the muscle up more than hunting alone.
Is this a good thing? Is this extra muscle size beneficial?
When I flew a good squirrel bird, my bird would go up and sit for a minute then move and sit until a chase is found then there are a couple minutes of hard flying. All of this flying is exercise but nowhere near the effort that 30 minutes of jump ups would require. In the wild I have never seen a Red Tail exert that much energy at one time.
Change species to a longwing and yes there are times when they pump for several minutes. Goose fly’s for 2 hours and is in the air the whole time. He exerts way more energy than 30 minutes of jump ups.
I think that for getting an intermewed bird going in the fall that jump ups are great to do a couple of weeks before you start hunting. Then just fly their tails off! When you can’t fly they are better than just sitting on a perch!
I watch modoc pump straight up all the time when hes climbing canyon walls to get to the peaks, he also pumps straight up out of heavy cover sometimes after a miss.
When doing jump ups, the pectoralis muscles contract to pull the wings down. When flying on game the muscles are the same the only difference is the angle of attack of the wing.
Isn't that contradictory? In my mind that is like saying I am going to only do incline press in order to improve my flat bench press. From a cardiovascular stand point i can somewhat see some reasoning for jump ups, but from a muscle building standpoint, unless you're flying a squirrel bird that pumps straight up often, i still see no purpose.
Falcon Boy Apprentice Falconry Administrator
Ethics make the individual, not the other way around.
Post by okiereddirthawker on Jan 9, 2008 8:08:21 GMT -5
The pecs don't change the AOA of the wing. You can't compare your pecs, which have various origins and several muscle groups to a birds which has one origin. The purpose in my mind is to build a relationship. The added muscle might help or hinder the bird depending on the species and flight style.
Health....... is the slowest possible rate at which you can die! That's Dr. Okiereddirthawker!
enless you are a die hard squirel hawker like Yarak i really dont think there is any reason to do jump ups. one its a waste of time when you could be out in the feild working the muscles that your bird WILL USE. If you cant get in the feild at least 3 times a week then there is something you need to think about. The whole Jump Up deal just kind of irritates me, you shouldnt have to do it in a falconry frame of reality.
Amen to that Rage!! If I want to get my bird exercise, I take it hunting, especially squirrel hawking. Nothing will muscle up a squirrel like a couple of weeks of straight out squirrel hawking.
Post by okiereddirthawker on Jan 9, 2008 11:05:18 GMT -5
modoc said:
I watch modoc pump straight up all the time when hes climbing canyon walls to get to the peaks, he also pumps straight up out of heavy cover sometimes after a miss.
I guess that goes with the surroundings and experiences. We don't have a lot of canyons out here. The tallest things we have a drilling rigs.
Health....... is the slowest possible rate at which you can die! That's Dr. Okiereddirthawker!