How to get tree rats moving when none are seem

[Master Yarak]

Who needs anything to shoot at all? Given enough slips and patience the hawk will figure out what to do. I dislike the idea of any projectile flying in the direction of my hawk. Holes and cavities are the only really safe place. Nests are destroyed if the hawk even suspects the presence of a squirrel. Countless times they have ran to nest only to be given a brief respite while the hawk finds the best point of attack. Now did she start out this way..of course not. It takes repetition, and a good number of slips. If you have one squirrel in most cases you have many. Don't get into a rush. Stop and wait for the bird to move on or to decide that its gone. A good hunter understands that many more will get away than will ever be caught. How would you feel, just on the outside chance you injured your bird with a projectile. If you REALLY think its worth it, maybe this sport is not for you. Risk is part of falconry. No matter what you fly or what you fly on. It is incumbent on each and every one of us to do all we can to minimize that risk. Faliure to that is irresponsible and reflects poorly on us all.
Yarak

[porch]

I presume that it is illegal to disturb a squirrel’s nest in most states – I know it is in NJ. To get them to come out just use a squirrel call (about $10 on eBay). Most calls have both a distress call and an aggressive bark. If you go creeping around the woods using it the squirrels come out to protect their territory and/or to see what’s going on. Works pretty good in NJ.

[Tiercel78]

I agree with Yarak! I have had a great season on squirrels and haven't used a sligshot yet!

[Jay]

Just wondering what are you guys squirrel couts for the season? Tiercel78 you had a score in the 90s didn't you? And Yarak you have a bird that is in its 10th or 11th season?

Up here in MA a great season is 30 squirrel. We just do not have the numbers. This year it could take up to two hours to get a singe squirrel moving. Even hawking with my sponsor who has over 35 years of dirt hawking experince it took awhile and a few drives to other spots to get a squirrel at one of the meets. It is not uncommon for me to go out for three or four hours and get one or two flights. It takes some time for the birds to learn to crash nest. With my last bird I did not need a slingshot in my second of third year with it as it learned to just jump on nest. But with a first year passage bird a slingshot or a willingness to climb trees is nessicary if you want to take game in any reasonable numbers in my area.

I do not see a slingshot as a substancial enough risk as not to use it. Use some common sence while shooting it. Practice with it before season is a must. I can hit a running squirrel with a slingshot and have killed a few with it. If you can hit a coke can at 40ft every time the chances of you missing a squirrel nest are slim.

Yarak if you think this is not the sport for me then BITE MY YANKEE ASS and all the other falconers that use slingshots. Falconry is practiced differntly everywhere depending on game populations and hawking locations. I bet in SC you will find they do some things differntly then in TX.

[johnh]

Gary Brewer uses a slingshot and has been hawking squirrels for years. Considered and expert on it really. In my opinion he knows what he's doing.

[Tiercel78]

Ok Jay, I understand your point you do have a low game count up there. I'm not saying that it was wrong. I'm just saying in a area thick with squirrel like here in the South Eastren U.S you really don't need it. If there is a vine that Runs up I'll give that a Yank. Since there is so many here, If one is smart enough to elude the hawk. Then I'll aways have a shot at him on the next hunt. Yarak does have a point about shooting projectiles there is always a chance of the bird gettig hit. Where I'm at in FLorida there is no real use for sligshots and Plus I can't shoot one worth a Sh$%T anyways. I do think that It's funny that everytime someone wants to prove thier point on squirrel hawking. It's "well Gary Brewer this and Gary Brewer that". Gary Brewer is a great falconer but he isn't lord of the Busytail. A male RT on greys in Florida will spank a hen everytime. So the best squirrels hawks are large female RTs? Well, maybe for Foxsquirrels in Texas

[shockley]

Gald to see that I am not the only one that hates shooting marbles.

[johnh]

I think it's funny when everytime someone does something someone else doesn't agree with, that someone is wrong and shouldn't practice falconry. My point with Gary Brewer was because someone said that if you use a slingshot maybe falconry's not for you. I would guess no one would argue that falconry's not for Gary Brewer. I just think it's wrong to argue absolutes when it come to falconry. There are a lot of different ways to do things that all work. Nothing wrong with having opinions, but it ceases to be a discussion when people are opinionated. JMO

[johnh]

I stand corrected, although the correction is in a different thread. ;D

[Master Yarak]

Jay,
I do understand it can be very difficult to find squirrels.
I do empathize. Our state meet is held in west Tx. ONE place had squirrels every squirrel hawker present would line up to get in there. If you go out all season fly your butt for 5 months and catch only 5 of them you had fun your bird is very fit and flown hard and you did exactly what you supposed to be doing to practice this sport at a dedicated level. Counting heads is not a bench mark of what quality of falconer you are or the quality of your dedication. Its about flying your bird, and keeping it healthy. You do that. It can be very frustrating I do know that. for both you and your bird. It will improve given enough slips even in the most sparsely populated areas. She will take advantage of every opportunity in a way a bird with a more abundant population will not. Their is a dramatic learning curve that I have seen demonstrated many times in passage RTs. They show great improvement till about 4 then it tappers off somewhat. Keep doing what your doing with your marksmanship with slingshot an unfortunate incident is more unlikely, but to me if I were under those conditions I would still not use one. Even the slightest chance of injury is not worth the risk.
Yarak

[Jay]

"If you go out all season fly your butt for 5 months and catch only 5 of them you had fun your bird is very fit and flown hard and you did exactly what you supposed to be doing to practice this sport at a dedicated level."

I could not agree more with you. The fact is that I see a slingshot as almost a mandatory part of a hawking kit here and it is probably due my age. A similar discussion got brought up at one of the Maine meets after I caught a snowshoe hare by hand and tossed it out as a baggie for a cast of harris hawks that were not chasing and the harris's owner counted it as a kill. Though I do agree this was not a kill they took some shots at me about climbing trees, 0using slingshots, or smacking a rabbit with the flushing stick as it goes by. Two falconers in the room who have over 40 years experince each both admitted they have commited more attrocitties than anyone in the room, yet that was while they were younger. All the more experinced falconers agreed that the longer you practice the sport many things that once seemed perfectly ok may eventualy be viewed as dangerous or unsporting.

As of now if the bird has not yet learned to crash a nest, there is no vine to the nest, and I can not climb the tree I will use a slingshot. While the some falconers even here would walk away from this situation, I just can not. The Maine guys say it is due to my age and that as I mature my views will change as well.

[jondarp]

There are sood good points being made on both sides of this issue. On the one hand, I believe it is every falconers' obligation to do his or her utmost to provide the bird with the best chances for success, especially in a first-year bird. If that means climbing a tree to give a nest a poke or maybe tossing a rock into a nest (as long as you make sure the bird is not near the nest or in the line of fire), then so be it. Still, that should be the exception rather than the rule.

With a more experienced bird (second season and above), then it stands to reason that the need to provide the same level of "aide" to the bird should lessen. In fact, I was amazed at the progress my bird made from her first hunts in November to those at the end of the season in February.

Yarak makes some excellent points about head counts. It should be about having fun, keeping your bird fit and in good feather and keeping it safe, first and foremost.

Still, I can understand where Jay is coming from. Although I am older than Jay (much older actually) :-), I'm still an apprentice. I admit that I "pushed the envelope" a few times during my first season in an effort to get game moving under my bird. I felt it was important for her confidence to have some success. So, on some hunts, after she had flown and chased hard, yet hadn't quite connected, I would push myself as a falconer a little harder to get something moving for her.

I also think it's a little easier to move on to the next squirrel (or rabbit) slip if you live in an area where you have good game numbers. I've spoken to some falconers from the mid-west who say they've bumped a hundred rabbits in a day's hawking. Where I live, we don't see a hundred rabbits all season long!

I think that each one of us must ultimately decide for ouselves what is acceptable in terms of "fair chase," but we must always put our bird's welfare above anything else (even it it means letting a few get away).

Just my two cents worth as a new falconer.

Regards.

[Falcon Boy]

as always Jon, great post and i agree 100%

[Sparkly]

I guess it's really a matter of personal taste. Lol, this has gone from a "how-to" thread to one on ethics. I kinda like the change. But if you're hunting as a sport, or to make the best bird you possibly can(as all falconers should!) then maybe using a slingshot isn't for you. If you're hunting to eat (either you or your bird) then go ahead and use one. But I guess this is just another aspect of the sport, right along with the type of game you hunt, and whether you release your bird upwind or not. Everyone needs to find his or her style for themselves.

But that's just a pre-apprentice rambling.

[alex2]

Even though I gave up my Mod position and its really FB to job to do this kind of thing
I'm going retrieve Yarak's lost posts.

yarak2 said:

Gary no longer uses smoke bombs or sling shots. Things change as we learn more. opinions are just that. You are free to completely disregard mine. I feel it is part of our responsibility to give our opinions. Those that are coming up can cipher through them to choose which they want to regard or ignore. My only real point was about the inherent risk associated with firing anything in the general direction of your raptor. My OPINION of that choice will not change. Do it enough times and Murphy's law will bite you. The chance may be remote, BUT if a ricochet hits the bird in skull where the feathers are thin it could cause serious trauma. Anyone who thinks that risk is worth flushing out that one particular squirrel should,in my OPINION reevaluate what it is they want from this sport. My animal has had micro-surgery to re-attach a tendon from a bad bite. I wish that squirrel got away. It was fortunate that it could be repaired. Some risk as I said is inherent in what we do, why add to it?
Yarak

yarak2 said:

Try not see to much of their mature personality at this stage of their development. So much will depend on their training and experience with you. It seems difficult to give an informed response. I do not think you will be disappointed in any of them. Almost all raptor behavior is learned. You will be getting one when it is most impressionable. You will have a permenate marker what you first write will be difficult to change later. Aggression is a double edged sword, so be careful what you ask for. Just some food for thought.
Yarak

Btw, Welcome back Yarak.



**FB's EDIT**
thanks wolf, saw them and mental noted to do it, mental note got lost in the files