Working Puppies. What To Look For.

[K9JaY]

I wanted to share what my personal philosophy is on breeding and what to look for when buying a puppy for any type of working purpose. I had written this in another thread, but thought it might be a good topic in it's own thread. I hope this is helpful in any way.

I feel the number one and most important requirement is, that the puppy I select does actually come from a current working line in the specific field that I want to get into (hawking, in this case). Here's why.

Today, there's a lot of different man-made competitions out there that supposedly prove "breed suitability." What I like to do is look at how nature picks out what is and isn't breed suitable. It's pretty simple. If it does what it's supposed to do to survive in it's natural environment, and adapts to it's surroundings and doesn't die... it's breed suitable! Easy as that. Here's an example: in the snowy areas of the world, animals tend to have "snowshoe-like" feet. How did it get that way? Let's take the snow leopard. Odds are, through history, snow leopard's decendants didn't ALL have big feet. It's just that the ones who did, performed better, ate better, survived in the area longer, and were around long enough to pass their genetics to the next generation. Pretty soon you got a bunch of snow leopards running around with this same genetic trait. Guess what? If, in a litter, one kitten pops up without the big feet, like it's decendants from long ago... it doesn't eat very well. Odd's are, it won't pass on that genetic.

Now, where it gets complicated is when you add us into the picture (the human factor). We have eliminated nature's breed suitability program, or replaced it I should say, with our own requirements. Our requirements for working dogs is a bit different than the animal's ability to live in the wild. Our requirements are really, if you think about it, ultimately based on performance at our one particular task we ask them to do, instead of literal survival in the wild.

This is, of course not the case with show dogs or your typical house dog, regardless of whether it is by class, considered to be a "working dog." Their purpose in their human family has usually nothing to do with genetic ability at all. Let's be honest. We usually pick out the cutest one with the biggest ears and the saddest eyes lol. The unfortunate part of that is, we slowly but surely breed the working traits out of the dog.

Along with that thought, I would also like to say, I never look at confirmation as a primary reason for selection. Not when you're looking for a functional dog for a working sport. Look at this example. We may know a guy that is really well built and can lift a lot of weight. That's impressive. But now let's say he's an aspiring football player. There's a chance you take that physical specimen out to the football field and a guy half his size will run circles around him at his position. My point? Physical structure doesn't necessarily mean anything. Can it? Of course. But, it's not the deciding factor as to whether or not something can perform. PERFORMANCE should be the deciding factor as to whether or not something can perform.

Let's use an example in the hawking world. I'll use Joby's log for Grim. Joby did an outstanding job last year logging the details of his team's hunts. In another thread, he lists out some characteristics to look for a in a mini-doxie for hawking. I don't feel there's anything wrong with that. Certain characteristics, he feels, tend to make flushing rabbits easier for the dog. I believe that he's right, from everything that I read. But my point here is, why do I believe that he's right? Because he bagged a boat load of bunnies last season in large part, thanks to his 2 mini-doxies. So before getting into all the details of what to look for in a good hawking dog, let's just look at the dog. The proof is in the pudding. By going out there and doing the work that Joby would be breeding for, he has simulated the "breed suitability test" for any future hawking dog puppy owners. He, in essence, recreated a version of nature's "breed suitability test." He just bent it to what he wanted to accomplish... hawking!

The next complication, unfortunately, is the science of breeding. Unfortunately, 2 dogs with outstanding performance ability that are bred, do not guarantee they will produce similar ability. There's always that chance that 2 outstanding dogs continue to throw past genetics of dogs that were not so genetically and mentally gifted at what they do. That's where generations of breeding for a single purpose is SOOOOO valuable to a potential working dog buyer. The more breeding generations a breeder then stacks that displayed these high level of abilities in the sport, the stronger your chance is that the offspring will carry these desireable traits. Another beautiful advantage to this method of breeding is, these types of breeders will also begin to breed out health issues that ail dogs today (hip dysplasia, cancer, organ conditions, etc.) Only healthy dogs can continue to do these high energy sports. It's easy for a physical specimen of a dog to lay on the couch all day and just "look good." That doesn't mean that their potentially isn't all kinds of problems "under the hood." Get that dog out in the field, and you'll really see what it's made of!

I have a friend of mine, Adrian, that is very active in a particular dog sport called French Ring Sport. I have to say it's an amazing test of a dog's physical ability. This sport was built primarily for the Belgium Malanois (a type of Shepherd). Unlike the sport of Schutzhund, French Ring Sport has absolutely NO confirmation portion of their program, but in my opinion, is a much more difficult sport as a whole. Well, one day I had asked my friend Adrian why this was. Didn't they care about the physical structure of the dogs like Schutzhund did? In more words or less, his answer was, "Jay, it takes years and years to accomplish a Ring III title for these dogs. With the kinds of jumps, turns, twists, patience, focus, and everything else it takes, only the most physically and mentally gifted dogs can accomplish a Ring III title. They couldn't accomplish this kind of training without being nearly flawless physically and mentally. If we already know that, then what would we need confirmation for? To prove what's already been proven?" That answer changed how I looked at breeding as a whole from that point forward.

So in conclusion, my advice would be when buying a puppy, I feel we should be looking for a breeder that has created or continued a breed suitability program that's closest to the functional part of our sport and in turn, simulates nature's selection process, but bent to what we want to accomplish... and that's to kill bunnies!

[K9JaY]

I admit I think it's funny that the first reply post is somebody telling me I'm wrong <sigh>. Ah well. What should I expect, posting my thoughts on a forum. So here it goes... sorry pioneersnt, but I also see a few holes in your holes in my post (say that 10 times fast).

You mentioned domestic breeds were created by man. Well duh. But didn't they all come from the wolf originally too? So none of how nature does things applies anymore to dogs just because we bred them to what they are now? As far as this comment and your comment about the snow leopards taking a long time to adapt, I missed your point in pointing this out and apparently you missed mine.

In regards to your comment about the "human factor" being in all breeds... you're right. I never said or insinuiated that humans haven't greatly influenced all species to some degree all over the earth. I again missed your point in pointing that out.

In regards to your comment "physical structure means EVERYTHING," no it doesn't. If that were the case, Arnold Schwartzeneigger could step out on a football field in his prime and just dominate everyone in his prototypical position. But he probably couldn't. That's such an awesome example. Think about that. If you were to ask anyone who hasn't coached or been involved in football, if Arnold Schwartzeneigger would make a great Defensive End or Linebacker, they would look at him and his amazing physical structure, and go "I'm SURE he would be an amazing football player!" They would most likely be wrong. And no, this is not comparing a greyhound to a rottweiller. Arnold is a Rottweiller, and Shawn Merriman of the San Diego Chargers is also a Rottweiller. On the football field, Arnold's toast. I really like using the football analogies here lol.

Let's take the NFL draft. Perfect demonstration of the same philosophy. They look at all the players, and evaluate their PERFORMANCE. How fast do they run? How high do they jump? How smart are they? How much can they bench? How much can they squat? HAS HE HAD A STRING OF INJURIES? ...tell tale sign of problems for the future. But it's a pretty good gauge when these guys played as kids from pop warner on up without an injury. If they can do all THAT, there's a HIGH percent chance they're healthy. Could they get hurt? Well sure. That's why after all of that, they do a full health exam. But after all of this is done, NOW they discuss "man, he sure runs a blazing 40... but he's only 5'8". Is his height going to OVERLY handicap him?" THAT's where structure comes in. It comes in a distant second. Do they ELIMINATE him JUST because he's 5'8"? Nope. But NEVER can I remember hearing anyone seriously say in a draft "well folks, he only has a 17" bicep... that's just not going to cut it." I also can't remember the last NFL draft I saw that was started with a body building contest. ...if structure were EVERYTHING in football, I think we'd see and hear a whole lot more of that.

Physical structure goes hand in hand with performance, which by default makes physical structure important. I never said it wasn't important. Physical structure is essential to perform. And that was my point. It almost ALWAYS has to be there to perform at a high level. A dog that can work to a high, high level, for a long length of it's life will essentially be well built.

Schutzhund DOES have confirmation.
www.germanshepherddog.com/breed/conformation_shows.htm
That's the first google link that pops up when you type "Schutzhund Confirmation."
I believe that's also the "United Schutzund Clubs of America" official site. Someone should tell them you say they don't do confirmation anymore, and to stop.

X-Raying hips is especially important to specific breeds. Particularly the ones that have unfortunately had hip dysplasia bred into them over time. Most importantly in those cases, a breeder would be wise to take extra precaution and make sure X-Rays are done. I've always gotten my dog's hips and elbows X-rayed. I feel that is very important and a simple way to find out if that's a problem right off the bat.

Pioneersnt, the whole point I made wasn't that structural soundness is irrelevant. It's that people tend to place that concern first and foremost in their selection process. I would prefer a good looking dog over an ugly dog as well. But I would take a healthy, ugly dog with drive out the roof for my sport in a heartbeat over your good looking pup. See ya in the field!

[K9JaY]

Apology accepted. I wanted to say, I saw your puppy picture on another page, and congrats on the addition. After thinking about it, I’m sure you’re hot on your puppy research, so that’s probably why it struck a nerve lol. I’ll be honest and say, that I’m going to start learning about the hunting side of dogs. I’ve never had the privilege of working with them yet. I have, however had years of experience in the protection working sports and had the privilege of working with and under some of the most well respected trainers in the country. That doesn’t make me an expert, but I have to say that I feel I’ve learned some things through all that.

I very much agree with breeders having some degree of balance. That being said, you might understand better, if you had trained dogs for months that were imported from Europe, to people that listened to a breeder’s advice. One dog I’m thinking of in particular. We would work on this dog’s bite grip for months on the sleeve. He’d bite full, then slip to a ½ or even ¼ bite. It’s a genetic trait that has been overlooked. Now, we trained that dog to bite fuller, to MASK the problem. Unfortunately, that underlying problem will always be there. He also didn’t have a great nerve base, which the bite problem was directly linked to. We may be able to hide it, but if that dog is ever put on a field in a stressful situation, he will automatically revert back to his bad tendencies and fail. Could he get a title? Absolutely. Probably a Schutzhund III. Unfortunately, it’s much easier to get a title than you would think, if the training time and dedication is put in with the right trainer. His scorecard points may even be ok. But if you look on his scorecard, they rate different traits of the dog. His “heart” will be rated WEAK… and rightfully so. The truth is, I wouldn’t trust that dog for nothing to come through if it had to, to defend myself or my family.

So all that being said, it’s a tough situation when that person that spent all that money on a dog that was bred by a “balanced” breeder, asks you what the problem is with their dog, and that the entire family tree of this dog is loaded with Schutzhund III and Confirmation titles. What they don’t understand is that the balance leaned towards the confirmation… and that’s all it takes. I have personally owned dogs with GOOD confirmation pedigrees… they just had GREAT working pedigrees. You see? Primary, and secondary importance. What I gave was just one example. You go work as a helper/decoy for Schutzhund clubs for 5+ years, and try to work with dog after dog that have similar stories to mine above, you may feel like I do too.

You also said that “die-hard Schutzhund guys” you know loathe confirmation. I don’t loathe it. I have a “1st Place Best Male Puppy” trophy in front of me at my desk. But why do you think they loathe it? I’ll tell you why. They’ve seen COUNTLESS “balanced” breed dogs SUCK at the sport they were “supposedly” bred for. I do realize that these sports we have discussed may be a bit more extreme of examples than your typical hunting sports, but I’ll tell you man. If you had gone out and seen people spend their hard earned money from these breeders, and just TRYING to get those dogs to a mediocre level of success, you might understand better. Again I stress the point that virtually any dog owner can go to a club and get a title on their dog with a good trainer. That alone does not make the dog good. And again, I say that because I have seen it. I’ve seen an English Bull Mastiff get a Schutzhund II title. In my first two years in the sport, I was paid to put a breed suitability title on a classic American Bulldog that was just slow as dirt with mediocre drive at best, but omg what a specimen of a dog. In truth though, are either of those dogs worth a dime in Schutzhund as it was intended? Not even close. I say it because I’ve worked it. It’s amazing what good training can work around.

If you get into the sports such as these, you’ll learn how very hard it is to get a GREAT confirmation pedigree with a GREAT working pedigree, as titles go. It’s almost unheard of. I would encourage you to go through the history of Germany’s “Bundeseiger,” which is basically the world’s Schutzund All Star competition. I have. You will be hard pressed to find winners in the first 5 places of the working events that showed that high for confirmation. By most “balanced” breeders definition of how to make the perfect dog, this example would contradict their philosophy. The truth of the matter is, you pretty much have to choose which one is your primary concern for breeding; working or confirmation. And again, I stress the word "primary."

As regards to your comment about confirmation having nothing to do with obtaining a title, you are right, if you are referring to a WORKING title. But the whole premise of Schutzhund is based on a balance, as you spoke of. By Schutzhund's definition, a very highly desired breed worthy dog, would have both, high scores in working AND confirmation. The dogs worth the big bucks have titles in both. Your Schutzhund buddies just don’t particularly care to participate in that portion of their sport; to each their own. Most guys that are into the working aspect of the sport dont particularly care about the big bucks in the sport.

Another experience popped into my head just now of another club and their training field I had gone to with my club at the time. We were a Schutzhund working club, and they were a Schutzhund confirmation club. They were nice enough to give us pointers on showing our dogs properly for confirmation in Schutzhund. I hate to be rude, but man did their dogs suck on the field. Our dogs blew their dogs out of the water. They sure were pretty, though. There’s something wrong with that picture, again, in my opinion.

I’d like to point out, that I originally intended my post to be MY personal philosophy. Those were my opening words. Unfortunately, I’m sure thousands of people would just love to run across my post on this forum and tell me why I’m wrong… which is precisely the problem with forums in general. My advice to everyone is to spend a bit less time trying to find reasons why we’re smarter than everyone else, and a little more time trying to learn something new that maybe we never thought of before. Maybe it’s just a new way to look at an old thought. If we don’t ever do that, how can we ever expect to grow? Having said all that, I really wish the best for you and your growing team!

[K9JaY]

I'm glad I didn't give my Cane Corso story instead of my English Bull Mastiff one. You would've really been mad lol. I NEVER mind when a person says "oh that's interesting. Well, I look at things a bit different..." and share their opinion. But, when a person tells me "You're wrong," they better be right. Just remember, there's a difference between discussion and debate. I started a discussion... you started a debate. Debates make my head hurt.

[K9JaY]

Anyways, back on subject. I thought I would add a bit more to the thread regarding puppy selection and particularly temperament tests. The previous posts in this thread were more about what to look for in a breeder. I have a few small tests I’ve personally liked to use when selecting a puppy. The results we get can and will probably be interpreted a bit different from person to person, for multiple reasons. This is a bit of how I look at puppies. I like to think that the idea of these tests is based on the three major drives that dogs instinctively have:

Prey Drive
Defense Drive
Fight Drive

I’ll give a brief description of how I see each drive, an example of how I would test the puppy, and what I would look for and why. Either you can test the puppies, or you can have the breeder do them, if they prefer. I would think it would be a good idea to do these tests with the puppies on an empty stomach, well rested, and energetic. I would also try it with each puppy separately, and isolated. Use it as a way to compare the different personalities in the litter. The more puppies you try this with, the more you’ll notice differences. Keep that in mind.

We’ll start with “prey drive.” Prey drive, also referred to as play drive, is a dog’s instinctive drive to chase something that’s running away. This something can be a rabbit, ball, car, child, adult, or other dog. Anything that is moving in the opposite direction that your dog decides to follow, is an example of the instinctive reaction to chase prey. That being said, prey drive is a primary tool in training, and is important to understand when selecting a puppy.

Test: Decide on a piece of cloth that you want to use as your test “toy.” Obviously, make sure it’s nothing that you have to worry about the puppy ingesting. Burlap sacks work great. Take the puppy to an undistracted area and get the puppy’s attention with the cloth. Drag it around the floor, just barely keeping it out of his reach. At some point, always let the puppy get a hold of it. Just try to keep the test a close as possible with each puppy.

Pay attention to how intent they are at getting a hold of that cloth. Did one give up more easily than the other? Did you notice a puppy that showed interest, but came and went more frequently? You can also learn a bit by the bite. Did the puppy nip at the cloth? Did he chase it down, jump on it, and when it stopped moving, walk away? Once it got a hold of the toy, did it clamp down and never let go? You can even go as far as looking at how deep the bite naturally is. Is the puppy chewy? You can put your hand into the picture too. Slowly pet the puppy. Touch it’s face; it’s side. What kind of reaction do you get? Neutral? Possession? Intimidation?

So what kind of reactions would we want to see? Well, I think the answer is that there is no specific answer. It really depends on what we’re looking for. It depends on what sport we are participating in, and also to what level we plan on participating in the sport of our choice. Just remember, with puppies, more is not always necessarily better lol.

Let’s start with the puppies levels of interest. This will be a good sign of what kind of response we can expect in training and in working. The puppies that show more interest, will, as adults, respond more readily to reward based training and will most likely be more inclined to have more drive in the field. That means more effort on the field of whatever sport we work at. The other side to that coin is, the ones with more prey drive are going to be the ones that demand the most attention, are more difficult to train with compulsion techniques, and ultimately drive us nuts the fastest! The more prey drive the dog has though, the more dramatic the results you can have in your working field, generally speaking.

Now where bite comes in, may or may not apply. I can’t speak much for the hunting sports yet, but we’ll take a future hunting retriever puppy as an example. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I would imagine you wouldn’t want a dog to be very chewy on its retrieve. You probably wouldn’t want it to maul the animal either. Maybe with certain hunting dogs, you would prefer the dog to chase the prey, but not have a desire to grab the prey. It’s pretty cool though that we can get a brief glimpse into what type of biting tendencies are innate in this puppy we’re looking at, and what we may expect in the future.

Now, I can tell you that in the protection sports, without getting into too much detail, we would prefer not to hear growling, see the puppy shaking the cloth too much, or excessive blinking. These tendencies will come out more, the more you touch the puppy. These wouldn’t be the end of the world too a small degree, but they’re not preferred. Less is better in those cases. We would most importantly, want to see a deep grip on the cloth that was held calm. Both those signs make for a great bite as an adult, and show calm nerves. We wouldn’t want to see a shallow bite, with maybe just the front teeth, or even a ½ or ¾ bite. A full bite is definitely preferred.

Now let’s take a look at “defense drive.” Defense drive is what we see when an animal is backed into a corner. The hackles stand up... the lips curl… defense drive in action. There are several reasons why a dog reacts this way. It can be possession of an object or food, possession of territory, or fear. Any way you look at it, it’s a clear way of defining a dog’s nerve base. That’s not to say that defense drive is a BAD thing. Different levels of a defense drive just mean different types of personalities. Defense drive though, is also very important to understand when selecting a puppy.

Test: Again, isolate a puppy in an undistracted area. Next… get something that makes a LOT of noise when it hits the ground. Don’t be afraid to make some noise, if you really want to get a good test in. Now have yourself or the breeder kneel down by the puppy. When the puppy is distracted… you guessed it, have someone else a few feet away drop the pan or whatever you decided on off the ground.

How did the puppy initially react? Was it significantly frightened? Was it moderately startled? Was it barely phased? How about after the initial reaction? Did it make its way over to the object to investigate? Did it whip around to look at the object, and then dismiss it, and continue what it was doing? Did it take off running or stay as far away from the object as it could? Maybe it even hid behind you or the breeder.

What do the different reactions mean? Well every reaction you see is a clear sign of what’s going on “upstairs.” It tells you a lot about nerves. If the puppy initially reacts neutral to the whole thing, we’re looking at a nice confident puppy that we may expect to become a nice confident adult. If the puppy is moderately startled, that is not a bad thing either. But if the puppy is significantly frightened, that’s an immediate bad sign. I would be worried about how that puppy will maybe tend to react with kids. In protection work, that will tend to not be a very confident dog. You probably would have seen similar negative signs in the bite as well from our first test, and how the puppy reacted to you touching it while it had a bite. So anyways, think twice about that puppy.

If the puppy reacted moderately startled, we would just want to pay attention to its next move. If it quickly dismisses the object, or goes over and investigates the object, these are both positive signs. They would just each paint a little different picture of the puppy as an adult to me. If it were to dismiss the object, I would expect more of a carefree adult dog, I guess. Cautious, but confident once it recognizes there is no danger. A dog that runs over in any example and investigates the object is just showing a more assertive personality. We’re looking at a dog that say, hears a noise around the corner in the dark, wants to head around the corner to see what made the noise. That’s just one example to use of how we might expect that to translate that reaction to adult tendencies. We just don’t want to again see, the puppy making its way as far away from the object as possible. Another sign of bad nerves.

Defensive tendencies translate in a large way in the protection sports. Of course, different trainers and breeders have different opinions of what level is the best. That’s where personal preference comes in. I just think it’s fun now, to take the picture we painted of the puppy’s defense drive and imagine how we can apply that to every day life with this puppy as well as life in our working sport.

Last is “fight drive.” I find fight drive hard to define. Some people don’t even consider it a drive. I think it’s directly linked to a dog’s dominant traits. A dog with a lot of fight drive will tend to be less submissive. You might even say that the dog will be more stubborn at times. This test, I think is at least in part linked to this drive.

Test: Take a puppy and roll it over on its back. Gently hold it in place around its front legs and ribcage, not letting it flip back over. Even though we might want to pick it up and give it a hug, don’t. Wait to see how the puppy handles the situation up until the end. Does the puppy lay still? Does it flail around whining, or whimpering? Maybe even a little growling?

This test gives us a window into the puppy’s tendencies to be more or less submissive. We may also see the puppies that showed more prey drive in the first test, tend to fight a bit longer. Sometimes I’ve found those to go hand in hand to some degree. Most puppies will give up though, at some point. If you do happen to get a puppy that never gives up, that might be an issue. Again with this test, there isn’t really a right or wrong result. It just gives us a clearer picture into what we may deal with when the puppy is older. In protection work, the puppy that flailed around like a fish out of water for the longest time, growling and whimpering may turn out to be a confident powerhouse. But, you may also find yourself beating your head off the wall at times because of the independence and dominance this animal shows you from time to time. It may feel like talking to a brick wall. On the flip side, you may have had a very submissive puppy in this test that grows up to be an extremely loving, caring dog. It may be the dog always under your arm, even at times when you don’t want it lol. Out on the field, that dog may also be very easy to control, but at the same time, more… even too sensitive to correction. It may also be more easily intimidated. Again, it’s interesting to think how this would apply to different aspects of any particular sport we participate in.

Those were just examples I could relate to in my past. I myself look forward to learning more, and how some of those rules I’ve found to be true, apply to different sports… even different animals! Does anyone else have any tests they like to use with selecting puppies, or tendencies that you would be looking for in your breed or game of choice, maybe? Any other personal opinions they would like to share? I’d like to hear. I’ve read a lot of great stuff from you guys and your personal techniques with puppies. Give me some feedback!

[tytan]

i also wouldn't mind a thread on bird selection, if anyone does anything like this with their passage hawks or eyases

[Master Yarak]

I rescued a mutt that was demonstrated very dominate tendencies towards other dogs. We knew she would rule any other one we got (or at least try to). To avoid any potential problems we gave those exact tests to a litter of 6-7 week old GSD puppies (we had the pick). We chose the most playful but least dominate one. It turned out to be a great match they were lifelong friends. Without those tests it would have been pot-luck.
Yarak

[K9JaY]

Nice, Yarak. Do you still have both? How old are they now?

[Master Yarak]

Nope, alas they are in big dog park in the sky. The mutt was the finest dog I have ever had. It had frost bite demadectic mange (genetic variety) and was 20 lbs under weight. She came back through all of it. I had to dip her for months. She got a cdx and good citizenship award. Very smart and hated cats. She enriched my life greatly and I even took her hunting a few times.
Yarak

[K9JaY]

Anyone else have any feedback? C'mon you hunting dog falconers! What are you looking for when picking out a puppy? It could be something that's either very general or very specific. If you were going to recommend what to look for, what would your advice be???

[jfseaman]

I swore off puppies decades ago.