Diane, I agree completely. My dogs were always checked for hip and elbow dysplacsia. It's necessary, because dogs with joint issues don't always show it until later in life. I elaborated on the subject on this other thread (the other party in the discussion deleted their comments.):
Post by forestfalcon on Mar 2, 2008 19:30:41 GMT -5
diane said:
K9JaY wrote about the importance of the parents of a potential actually DOing what you are looking for. I agree with this, but I DO want health tests as well. I had an absolutely awesome hunting partner with my Vizsla, Farli. She pointed rabbits and upland birds, worked ducks, etc. If I had not x-rayed her for hip-dysplacsia I would have bred her - I had plenty of folks that wanted one of her pups. However, the x-rays showed hip-dysplasia. Because she was lean and well muscled she showed no effects of the dysplasia - until she broke her foot when she was almost 9 years old. The rest required for her foot to heal resulted in loss of muscle, which allowed the hip issues to surface. We were never able to regain the muscle tone and from 10 years on she was on pain meds. By 12 years, a combination of 3 pain meds was not enough to completely control the pain - she was in daily pain until we put her down at 14.5 years due to kidney failure. Farli enjoyed life and hunted till the last month. I even put out a wing taped chuker the last day of her life for her to retrieve which she did with joy. But I don't want a dog in that much pain for 4 years of her life again. So, I want function and health tests! The structure must be correct enough not to limit the dogs ability to hunt/work.
I that note, does anyone know the frequency of Intervertebral disc disease or other health issues in mini-doxies? I image some lines are healthier than others. How old are doxies hunting in the field? The pet web sites say doxies should not go up and down stairs or jump on/off the furniture. While I've not (yet) hunted with a doxie, I have with JRTs, Vizslas and other breeds. The climbing, brush pile burrowing, etc is a lot more rigorous than stairs or furniture jumping, so how durable are these dogs for 10 or more years of hunting?
Looking for a small rabbit dog - researching and learning - but I want a dog this summer if I can.
Thanks Diane
I don't know the exact prevalence of disc disease in doxies, but here's what I can tell you:
I have been a vet tech for 8 1/2 years, and I have seen quite a few doxies with back problems. Some can be treated with steroids, or things like gabapentin, etc. However, there are also quite a few that need to have lamenectomies. From my own experience, I had a mini, and she wasn't an avid bed jumper, etc, but she did do stairs, and go for walks, and play with other dogs, and at 5 years old she woke up one day and couldn't move her back legs. Nothing (significant) happened that would have caused this, but all of her deep pain was gone, and even with surgery, she would have required a wheelchair, so we ended up putting her down.
I love doxies, they are smart, and willing, but they can certainly have some serious back issues. I'm not at all saying that there aren't tons of healthy ones with no issues at all, but I would be prepared for it. Minis TEND to have less disc problems, probably because they are smaller, and have shorter backs than the standards. Weight control is a big deal with these guys, they can gain it very quickly, and it's hard to keep it off.
Hope that helps.
"We promised the world we'd tame it, what were we hoping for?" -Bloc Party
Hi Diane, Forest Falcon said basically what I did in my response to your pm. The minis, especially the ones that Teddy Moritz, Susan Fuller, Bill Boler, and others have bred, experience much less back problems. Due largely to their shorter backs, more athletic builds, and the fact that they are worked consistently and kept at a resonable weight. These factors are key. My male Cobie (who was bred by Bill Boler), is a 7 year old dog that works the pants off most of the other dogs I run him with (K9Jay and OhioRT can support this) plus he is a hole demon (couldn't do any hole work if his back was not in a good place). Plus, my little female (out of Teddy's and Susan Fullers stuff) is a little gymnast who is constantly over, under, and through brush piles and fallen logs. Has any dogs from this line had bad backs, I'm sure they have. Are they less susceptible than those from the non-hunting lines, that I'm definitely sure of as well. Pound for pound I wouldn't hunt with anything else. If you're interested in a puppy, send me another PM. Mine have all been spoken for, but I know of a couple of other breeders up in your neck of the woods who have a couple of litters coming out of the same lines that I have. -Joe
Hi Diane, I saw on the Falconry Dogs forum that you had a chance to get out and see the mini-doxie's run up at Bill's place. He told me he enjoyed having you and your husband out to watch his dogs work. From your posting on the Falconry Dogs forum, it seems you really saw some neat stuff. The little dog you saw busting out the bunnies, Brodie, is a great little dog and is Bill's current stud dog. I have his previous stud dog, Cobie, who is a bit smaller than Brodie, but with the same intense hunting drive. So, are you still leaning towards the JRT-Beagle mix, or have you seen the light??? ;D ;D -Joe
P.s. While my puppy is spoken for, I know that Teddy and Bill both have litters coming. Teddy's will most likely all be Black and Tan, while Bill's could be anything.
I was hunting with Teddy a week or two ago when you called to tell her about your bitches x-ray results. How did she make out with the surgery? And was the x-ray correct.
Hey Joe, Bayli had one pup and the x-ray showed it, so they had suggested a c-section. I had to drive through the blizzard to get her there and then had to pay $750 for the vet bill (plus $180 for the x-ray). People who think we make money off of breeding these pups just don't quite understand that we don't make sh^t AND sometimes we even lose our pants in the process.
Anyway, pup and mother are well. The pup is a really strong little gal and had crawled out of the whelping box 2x by the time she was 4 days old (had to crawl over a 5" vertical incline to do it too). Eyes should be opening soon, which is my favorite part. She's going to a falconer who will be moving here to Columbus soon, so I'll be able to see her develop, which will be nice. -Joe
Glad to here she is doing well. Did you have her spayed after the c-section? I know a lot of vets suggest this because they say she will never be able to have a litter naturally after having a c-section.
Thanks for all the advice and information. Yes I did have a great visit watching Bills dogs. At the moment I want more than one dog! - But I'll have to narrow it down to one. From my novice perspective:
Dachshund: Pros - fits down the rabbit holes, better nose than a JRT, can get one by driving to breeders; good community breeding them. cons: chondrodysplasic dwarfs, not as athletic for other sports such as agility, won't be able to play with the vizsla as safely (don't want the "big" dog jumping on one)
JRTs pros: good athletic dogs with a larger community of people breeding for hunting/working traits. I've hunted with JFTs and stayed in homes with JRTs so I have a better idea of what to expect both for hunting and living with the dogs; do well in agility & flyball for the non-hunting seasons. cons: larger in general, tend not to track scent as well as the hounds (or even a good Vizsla); need to research one for falconry/rabbits as most working JRTs are breed for raccoon, possum, groundhog, woodchuck, etc.
Beagle-JRT: better nose for tracking; probably larger than the JRTs; Breed for brush briar hunting more than holes. Cons: limited availability, must fly to get one.
Hey Joe, Actually, according to Teddy, Susan Fuller and my vet, she shouldn't have any problem having another litter naturally. Teddy told me that you can't have more than 3 c-sections on any one dog, but that Bayli shouldn't have any problems having her next litter naturally, depending on the size of the puppies. -Joe
Hey Joe you coming to the field trial in MD I am taking Pheby down there to see what happens. Hey Joby Pheby is doing excellent, I love this dog she is the most hard core hunter I was working my coon hound with a dead coon on a rope and that little pup I got from you was going nuts she was treeing next to the coonhound and when I lowered the coon down from the tree, she would clamp on and let me hoist her up of the ground while she hung from the coon. She is as hard core as they come!
Hey Lee, Good to hear that Pheby is the killer I knew she'd be. She's definitely got her papa's demeanor. I've talked that little girl up quite a bit with Susan and Teddy. Hopefully she'll show 'em all at the MD field trial.
When is it being held? I've got to finish off Cobie's field championship and get Bayli's started. I know that the MI trials are coming up in a couple of weeks and I might try and sneak up there. Cobie won it all up there two years ago and they've got a real nice set up. Problem is that Bayli's little girl, Maggie, will only be 6 weeks old and I don't know if I want to take her with me before she's had her first round of shots.
Has Teddy stopped by yet? She mentioned that she was going to be stopping by your place on her way to Susan's. BTW, if you have any pictures of Pheby, I'd love to see how she looks compared to Chance. -Joe
Hey Dave, Yes, anyone can come and watch. The MI field trials will be held at the Detroit Beagle Club, which is in southeastern MI. If you go, you'll get a chance to see my group of friends from N. IN and southwestern MI run their dogs. Falconers usually dominate these trials, so it's always fun to go and root them on.
Just a quick bit of info, my buddies in N. Indiana are probably going to have 3-4 litters of mini-doxies available this summer. So if you weren't able to get on any of the other lists, there will still be dogs available. This is the breeding that produced my little male Cobie and Jag's wunderdog Turk. There are a lot of reds and dapples mixed in, so if color is something that is important to you, they'll have some interesting stuff. So, if you're interested, drop me a line and I'll give you their contact info. -Joe