Apprentice With Spaniel

[ppatterson]

Hello all,
I have posed this question on a few other forums with no response and I am not sure why...anyways here goes.
I am an apprentice who with the blessing of my sponsor is asking for information about bird and dog training.
I currently have a Boykin Spaniel that I trained as both an upland flusher and a waterfowl retriever. He has earned his seasoned title in Hunting Retriever Club and won the Boykin Intermediate Upland Field Trial.
What I am hoping to accomplish as a future falconer is the use of both my pup and hawk in the field. The concern that I share with my sponsor is the commands that I have used in the past with my dog (Memphis is his name).
Memphis is trained to voice, whistle, and hand commands. A solid toot on the whistle has him stop, face me, and sit. A double toot and he changes directions on his quartering pattern by 180 degrees. 4-6 short toots in a row has him come to me. These whistles are augmented by the 8 hand commands that send him to find a bird he did not see fall. I also use about 20 voice commands (some are wasted on parlor tricks) to communicate with Memphis. Memphis is also steady on the flush, shot, and fall though when we haven't hunted enough we sometimes need to practice our skills ( sometimes he flash points and sometimes he breaks on weak flyers). I have always stopped him on rabbit flushes. We hunt quail, pheasant, and chukar in the uplands and puddle ducks in the shallows of lakes and sloughs.
I hope to trap a red tail this season when my paperwork comes back from the state. If and when this happens I would like to know how some folks have handled flusher dogs working in tandem with their hawks. I realize that a Harris might be in my future if I continue hunting birds but I am interested to hear problems, perspectives, and advice on what has and has not worked.
I did see a post about using the tone on a collar to handle the pup and thought that was a great way dealing with the issue.
If it won't work or won't work until I am much more seasoned I would appreciate hearing that as well. My biggest fear is to confuse both bird and dog while training or hunting.
Thanks,
Phillip Patterson

[Falcon Boy]

You don't have to train the bird to a whistle, you can you use any auditory stimulus that is loud enough for the bird to hear it far away.

If you do want to use a whistle with the bird, it may be useful to have the dog and bird return to you at the same time. That way the dog isn't flushing game while the bird is coming to the glove. In this case, it wouldn't really be an issue. The way your dog is trained could actually work well. Use 1 whistle to call the bird to the fist, so the dog just sits and waits. Then use 4-6 to call the bird to the lure, and the dog will come back to you. Generally the lure is used at the end of the hunt or in case of emergency, so getting the dog back at the same time would work well. For the rest of the commands to the dog you could just use verbal communication.

In terms of getting the bird used to the dog, Echo had it right. It's all about exposure. Don't ever let the dog touch the birds food either, esp. while on the lure.

[Chigger]

Jan 1, 2013 13:36:10 GMT -5 Falcon Boy said:

You don't have to train the bird to a whistle, you can you use any auditory stimulus that is loud enough for the bird to hear it far away.

Gary Brewer had advised using a predator call instead of a whistle for use with a bird. Personally I found it to have no different effect than a whistle. However, it might sound different enough from your whistle that your dog would ignore it. idk

[ppatterson]

Thanks for the quick responses!

Hello Phillip , welcome aboard . I see you are in TN , what city ?...who is your sponsor?
We only have 14 days left till the end of trapping season so getting an RT trapped , trained before the season abruptly stops in march due to heat is pushing it a bit , but it can be done .
Just know late season RT have a harder time getting used to hunting with dogs than a younger Passage earlier in the season .

I am in Knoxville and Vince is my sponsor.
I was primed to start hawking after passing my exam in May. I landed a new job in July and was a little hesitant to continue building my mews and trap a bird until I figured out the new work schedule. I became confident late in the season and am anxiously awaiting my permit. Hopefully, it will work out, but if not, I will be ready to go this fall.

The only issues you may have on training are the whistle and your dogs willingness to retrieve . You will need to use a whistle to train your RT for glove response and the lure ( might cause issues with Memphis' whistle response ) and you definitely want to Stifle the retrieve instinct once the hawk catches something you don't want him over running her or bumping her off the catch . Another important thing to RT's and dogs is Rabbits . If Memphis is broke to rabbits he might not be much use to your hawk . Around TN you will find the best opportunities for an RT are Grey Squirrel and rabbits , Mainly squirrel . We seem to have a healthy rabbit population the past few years and having a dog to get them moving is priceless .

Flushing and retrieving are definitely part of the dog hunt testing. In an Upland test the birds are scattered over the field and the advanced dogs are required to hunt, find, flush the bird into the air or catch it, sit on the flush, remain sitting on the shot and fall, and wait for either the command to retrieve, recall, or continue hunting.
The retriever trials are a bit different with ducks either being launched airborne for a "marked retrieve" or placed in the field/water for a "blind retrieve". The dog must remember the locations of the "marks" and follow the hand/whistles on the "blinds". Obviously, the "marks " are seen by the dog and the "blinds" are not. Honoring other dogs working is also a big part of both tests.

My point is that the dog must be in control in all of these situations to pass or win.
Memphis has not been allowed to chase rabbits when he flushes them. That also holds true for birds. When something flushes I want him to sit so that I don't have to worry about him being shot or following a bird into the next county! Sometimes there is a chase and sometime there is a point which both require remedial training.
I realize that unfortunately quail and ducks have disappeared from our East TN landscape. I do travel some to bird hunt and will continue to do so. I really would like to hunt more. I grew up hunting squirrels and rabbits in middle TN and enjoy the prospect of hawking them.

If you do want to use a whistle with the bird, it may be useful to have the dog and bird return to you at the same time. That way the dog isn't flushing game while the bird is coming to the glove. In this case, it wouldn't really be an issue. The way your dog is trained could actually work well. Use 1 whistle to call the bird to the fist, so the dog just sits and waits. Then use 4-6 to call the bird to the lure, and the dog will come back to you. Generally the lure is used at the end of the hunt or in case of emergency, so getting the dog back at the same time would work well. For the rest of the commands to the dog you could just use verbal communication.

I am interested in the use of whistles. I have used a couple of Acme's and a Roy Gonia with Memphis in the past. Will the hawk learn to differentiate a different toned whistle if I only used it for her? What possible problems could I have by using a "recall" whistle for both the dog and bird? Will the bird flair and fly off or does it really come down to exposure? I trained my pigeons to recall/feed on a mouth whistle but thought I would need something louder for the hawk in the field.

If Memphis is to excited about the hawk and tries to run up on her , she will likely teach him its a bad idea to do it with a quick punch to the nose . In my experience with dogs and hawks ( 3 falconers in Nashville use dogs with our hawks) its all about constant exposure . Its likely the first time she mantles her wings out on approach by the dog they learn the signal ,

In terms of not making in on a kill I will be able to train that since Memphis has a soft mouth and eats on command. That will definitely be exposure training
with Memphis watching the bird eat.

[echotadog]

Phillip , you are in good hands with Vince. He's a good falconer .
You are in close proximity to the eagle foundations staff and Mr Hepinstall who are a world of knowledge as well.
It sounds as if your extensive training of Memphis is perfect for hawking . If he's that responsive to commands once he learns your target species he will do great . Aside from a few pheasant hunting farms there's not to many Feather species around here that an RT can consistently catch . Now get Memphis to work with Vince's Coopers on quail and ducks , that would be a thing of beauty !
On the whistles , I started out using Roy Gonia whistles an moved to the Acme Thunderer just for the louder tone , the hawk didn't seem to notice the difference I just wanted more distance out of the tone in case I lost my hawk. They seem to train to just about any version of noise once the sound and food association is made . Some guys use dog training clickers for tidbitting and a long drawn out Rolling Pea whistle cadence for the lure . My glove call is a short single burst , the lure call is the longer cadence , using the same whistle . I would be willing to bet any noise would work once the tidbit is in a hungry beak.

[Falcon Boy]

In terms of the bird flaring off, my experience has been that it mostly has to do with exposure. Some birds get used to dogs faster than others.

In regards to the bird differentiating between two whistles, I am not sure. I know they can tell the difference between 1 long whistle and a few quick short whistels.I don't know if they'd pick up the difference in tone if the pattern is the same, never tried it.

[ppatterson]

Great to hear! Thanks for the advice and support.
I will keep you posted as to how it all works out!
Phillip