Labrador retriever's as hawking Dogs

[echotadog]

looking for information from anyone that has flown Hawks successfully over Labrador retrievers . Specifically information on how they fare as rabbit flushers and possible squirrel tree pointers.

Not exactly looking for information about :
" I knew a guy who... "
"Saw a video once on youtube of a guy who...."

Mainly wanting to hear from those with actual field experience with labs and Hawks . My current Vizsla is too much of a basket case to be useful in the field ( great as a house dog just too high strung for the hawks ) and I was wanting to return to being a Lab Companion anyhow. Thanks in advance

Allow me to clarify a bit, I grew up raising labrador retrievers and am well versed in personality and ability , its the retriever aspect that I am curious about ... whether or not it can be diminished or discouraged to avoid the hawk being barrel rolled off its kill..

[Deleted]

It's probably no more difficult to train a lab to stay back from a hawk on the kill than it would be to work with the viszla to calm it down. How old is the viszla? Maybe it just needs time to mature? I have seen a young viszla work rabbits and they certainly do cover a lot of ground in a hurry!

[nanahawk]

I do not own a lab anymore. But I have been in the field with one many times. A falconer local to me squirrel hawks with a lab helping out. The lab never points, but has scared up game quite a bit. He also has flushed rabbit that the hawk took too. never saw the lab get close to the hawk after she took game. But I know it was because he was trained that way. After the hawk went to ground the falconer would just give the command to lay down and that's just what the lab would do till
He was called back.

[echotadog]

Dave , thanks for the opinion , However I was looking for more How to on Labs and Hawks . my vizsla is beyond the point of that. He will be 6 in few weeks and calmness isn't the issue , he literally has nervous mental issues and anxieties... You are beyond a Dog whisperer approach when your vet suggests Prozac for a 67lb dog. To add to it other health issues that keep him better served as a foot warmer than a field champ.He is smart and reliable , just not altogether stable .

@ Nana - When you say "scared up game" do you mean squirrel from the ground or will he get them moving in the trees as well ?
My last lab who past 2 years ago was a pointer hence why I asked . So was there a tell the dog shows ( tail up , bark , etc ) when he sees a squirrel or rabbit or is it just a chase until he calls him down or back ?

Does he reward the lab at the heel command ?

[nanahawk]

He got game to move both on the ground and in the trees. I think the squirrels in the trees where just trying to get a look at what was running around on the ground. He would chase a squirrel that was on the ground. Never heard a peep from him no tells. Just allot of running and sniffing. And if he came across a rabbit hole he would try to dig/flush the rabbit out.

One time he stopped hawking a bit to grab a bite of food and get a drink but left the two (hawk and dog) out. And They got their own rabbit.

No reward givin. But if he would not cooperate he would not get to keep hunting. And this dog loved to hunt.

[chad13dnvr (DBH)]

Feb 16, 2012 22:47:42 GMT -5 echotadog said:

its the retriever aspect that I am curious about ... whether or not it can be diminished or discouraged to avoid the hawk being barrel rolled off its kill..

I currently fly birds over the top of a lab that was originally trained as a gun dog. She is a VERY high drive dog and the worry of her comming back with game in her mouth and a hawk still attached was a very real one for me.

I started slow with lots of controlled exposure to the birds with her either being on leash or at a minimum wearing an e-collar. Over time she seemed to just pick up on the fact that getting to close was a no no and eventually came to accept falconry birds as a substitute for the shotgun.

I primarily hunt upland and waterfowl but I've never had an issue getting her to transition and "hunt up" whatever may be lurking in the bushes.

[echotadog]

Great info Chad , thanks ...
What kind of Birds are you flying her under ?
Was the ecollar the best method to discourage the retrieve?
If you don't mind , can you explain your actual technique you used, step by step to discourage the instinct to return with the catch ?
Thanks for the info .

[chad13dnvr (DBH)]

Feb 17, 2012 12:51:41 GMT -5 echotadog said:

Great info Chad , thanks ...
What kind of Birds are you flying her under ?
Was the ecollar the best method to discourage the retrieve?
If you don't mind , can you explain your actual technique you used, step by step to discourage the instinct to return with the catch ?
Thanks for the info .

Echo,

Currently i'm running her under a female GP but she's been used under other large falcons and redtails as well.

Here is my advice in a nutshell.

Step one. Work with the dog outside with the bird on a perch. Have a helper restrain the dog and throw a toy near the falcon. Its best to have your bird fed up at this point so it doesnt think you are throwing a lure. Let the dog charge in to get it and before she does give the hold or down command. Falconer stays next to the bird for safety and stops the dog if needed. Reenforce this several times and reward the dog afterwards with a long play session. This will take several repetitions over several days to achieve a solid effect. No negative training. Use an E-collar as an absolute last resort and or safety to protect the falcon should the dog charge in.

Step two. After step one has been worked and the dog shows to be solid, take them out in the field. use a thrower or helper to produce a baggie for the falcon to kill. Keep things close to the falconer. No further away than the length of a check cord which will be attatched to the dog. When the falcon goes down on the baggie, the dogs natural instinct will be to go get it. Check the dog and reenforce the hold/down if the dog does not do it automatically. Make in on your bird with the dog in hold/down and as soon as the bird and baggie are recovered produce the toy and give the dog a good play session. This also is the most crucial part of the training because the retrieve instinct will be at it's highest and the dog will likely need attention to correct a problem. Whatever happens do not let the dog make into the baggie and disturb the falcon. you want to pay attention to your dog and down/check her before she has a chance to make her own mind up. This will take lots of reenforcement.

step three. This will be the hardest. you will have to work with her on this to get trust established. When using her in this fashion while hunting, an e collar is a must. It will be the failsafe to keep the dog from challenging the command once arriving at the downed falcon. You will have to get there the same time she does to prevent this should a problem arise. Her getting to the bird(under your falcon) would be a setback and a hurdle that will require backing up a step to correct. Better to not let this happen. Ok if everything goes as planned and she downs at the falcon (like she has been trained) do as you did in step two. pick up bird/falcon and produce the toy and give a little reward time to burn off frustration. then get back to hunting.

Please be aware that these are basic guidlines on getting the desired response from your dog. It may require tweaking to get the desired effect.

[echotadog]

And thank you again for the details , very grateful for your time. Here are few videos of the bonding training I have done with my Viz and past RT. It reflects a bit of the conditioning you touched on in proximity training the dog to the hawk
www.youtube.com/watch?v=oF3ooGMvQWQ&feature=plcp&context=C3eb9aa3UDOEgsToPDskLXK_8ySRSot_BvNbljMKd-

www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlMaQwJGLF0&list=UUEPJf3EIfR40cK94x58vpBQ&index=10&feature=plcp.

The field training you have done sounds very similar to the techniques my sponsor uses on his 2 spaniels , even down to the ecollar as last defense. They are exceptional in the field for rabbits and any other fur bearer for that matter. They usually point them out within feet and wait for a flush command . the pup can be a bit exuberant but is coming along nicely. My main concern was in the diminished retrieve instinct and I think you have given me a lot of useful information to apply to to my next dog....

Although I haven't completely given up on my Viz , we still do these kinds of association training around the home and yard ( more in an attempt to get my hawks to work with other falconers dogs on hunts ) my boy is scared of his own shadow ( literally ) and the shadows cast by trees on the ground. They might as well be a crevasse into the earths core. He won't cross them ? he will jump over the slimmer looking ones but won't past a big shadow and seems fearful of any strange objects or clumps of mass. I know, sounds like an abused dog , but he is not. Never has been . We picked him up at 8 weeks old and he has been steely fearful of Shadows , heating ducts and anything that moves location, animate or not, in his know environment ... Like my Canoe , archery target , etc. If they move from one yard visit to the next he growls at them and won't enter the yard. Silly thing had a fever at 3 weeks of age and it is the only thing I can attribute it too , should have named him Fredo. This relationship may require a fishing trip on a dingy with a corleone henchmen. I can't even begin to get into how bad his separation anxiety is . If i leave for 5 minutes and he is unattended , my home looks like it was raided by an army of raccoons , everything is shredded ...everything . and i digress ...

So yes, thanks so much for the info on labs , as soon as I can convince my wife we need another dog ( ggod luck on that one ) I can try applying some of this training.....