...you fill out the 3-186a form and it does ask for cause of death so they will probably want vet records to find the cause of death if it's not self explanitory.
I never noticed the 'cause of death' line on the 186 before you mentioned it here. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I've never heard of anyone being asked for vet records to confirm cause of death. Anyone?
i don't know if anyones been asked but if you put, for ex. cause of death unknown i think you would want something to back you up to show at least a vet tried to figure it out and show your responsible enough to get medical attention when needed for your hawk. probably just good to have if the unfortunate should happen.
... if you put, for ex. cause of death unknown i think you would want something to back you up to show at least a vet tried to figure it out and show your responsible enough to get medical attention when needed for your hawk. probably just good to have if the unfortunate should happen.
Say your hawk died suddenly overnight (no previous signs of illness). Would you go to the expense of a vet post mortem just to prove to permit agents that it wasn't your fault?
What if it WAS your fault (ignorance, bad advice from others, poor judgement)? Should you lose your license for being inexperienced?
I can see an inquiry/inspection if one had a paper trail of one dead bird after another. Hypothetically speaking - what's the dead bird limit and years at which time a permit should be revoked? Two in ten years, four in twenty? Who determines how many is too many for X time frame? (Some permit agents think ONE is too many in a falconer's lifetime.)
Post by Master Yarak on Jan 6, 2009 16:42:23 GMT -5
It seems death is almost inevitable. Even if its not flown and kept as a "pet" it could still perish. I have heard of only one instance where the state got involved. Some (insert expletive) kept killing Kestrels. From what I gathered it was more than 12 in 3 years. Someone (another falconer?) informed the state they investigated took the Kestrel he had and pulled his permit. I do not think he was fined but I don't think they were going to re-issue his permit at a later date either. Yarak
If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music he hears, however measured or far away
even if one of mine died suddenly for no aparent reason i would have a necropsy done and i think it would be the responsibility of any falconer to have one done to make sure it wasn't something where you keep you bird that caused its death . a vet bill is part of falconry sometimes just like a doctor bill for our children but , we don't need a permit to have kids although some should ...
Some (insert expletive) kept killing Kestrels.... more than 12 in 3 years. Someone (another falconer?) informed the state they investigated took the Kestrel he had and pulled his permit.
Yikes... that's a lot! Very sad. I would've thought the paper trail would've alerted the state to trouble long before he killed so many and was turned in. Unless, of course, the guy never filed that paperwork. What class falconer and possession limit?
even if one of mine died suddenly for no aparent reason i would have a necropsy done and i think it would be the responsibility of any falconer to have one done to make sure it wasn't something where you keep you bird that caused its death . a vet bill is part of falconry sometimes just like a doctor bill for our children but , we don't need a permit to have kids although some should ...
Have you priced a postmortem procedure... gross exam, tox screens, lab tests, fecals, radiographs, etc.? It adds up FAST. IMO, that money is better spent on a live bird to return it to health - not a dead bird. But if it would put your mind at ease to know it wasn't something you did or didn't do, I'd support doing a post. My apprentices have done them for that reason.
But one needs to consider that it could backfire on them. What if the post determined that you were partially responsible for the loss (as I said earlier... through ignorance, bad advice, etc.)? Couldn't the vet's post report be used against you i.e. raise a flag with agents? Just something to think about.
Some (insert expletive) kept killing Kestrels.... more than 12 in 3 years. Someone (another falconer?) informed the state they investigated took the Kestrel he had and pulled his permit.
Yikes... that's a lot! Very sad. I would've thought the paper trail would've alerted the state to trouble long before he killed so many and was turned in. Unless, of course, the guy never filed that paperwork. What class falconer and possession limit?
He did NOT file the proper paperwork. Someone ratted him out. He was a first year general when he got the visit. The guy that told me the story had continued contact with this fellow to see if he went and trapped another. He did not. The bird they confiscated came to our facility and was on the way out. He did make a come back but he was very malnourished. Yarak
If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music he hears, however measured or far away
it sounds like you might know the cost of a post-mortem, i don't know. please share at least a basic to worst case that you listed, i'm sure it's different from state to state. my redtail was just bitten by a cottonmouth 2 months ago and i'm glad treatment and medication was less than $200 and she was bitten twice last week when she caught 2 of them one snake in each talon, she was bitten on the face and on the same leg as before. I think she has the antibodies now!! as far as vetrinarian treatment backfiring... as long as goodwill an intentions were at least attempted that's about all anyone can do to keep the ethics for the sport of falconry top notch.
I think it's good to know that their is really no reprecussion if an accidental death happens. I've been hearing about kessies being rather fragile birds. While providing the best care at home, the thing is, you're taking these birds into "the wild" and hunting with them, something you wouldn't do with a parrot. There is so much more that can go wrong out there, as I've heard, cats can come up out of nowhere and attack it, other raptors could get it. You can only do so much to prevent something from happening.
I lost my kbird due to...ignorance, bad advice, and just rotten luck. I was scared out of my mind that the FWP was gonna come breathing down my neck and say 'OK, you had your chance. No more falconry for you.'
Needless to say, that didn't happen. But my kbird was being freelofted in a mew too big for him (my sponsor has never flown one, he didn't see the problem with this....um...now I know MUCH better.)
Something scared him (i.e. cat jumped onto the windowsill or something) bad enough that he had a panic attack and smacked right into the wall of the mew and broke his neck. Obvious cause of death. In this case, it was my fault because I freelofted him in a place he could build up that much momentum. In other cases, like FB, it was nobody's fault. Was it bad husbandry? No. I took the best care of that little bird that I knew how as a first-year apprentice that had been researching and preparing for a redtail and ended up with a kestrel. It was, like Migisi said, ignorance and bad advice. I have not, and will never, make that mistake again. It's part of falconry. Most people here have lost a bird at one time or another. If they haven't, they're either very good or very lucky.
Best cure is prevention. Know the dangers, prepare and prevent them. The unexpected can and will happen. But at least you can increase your chances by weeding out the obvious.
If you dislike someone, walk a mile in their shoes. Then, you are a mile away from them, and you have their shoes. --Jack Handy
But my kbird was being freelofted in a mew too big for him (my sponsor has never flown one, he didn't see the problem with this....um...now I know MUCH better.)
Hindsight is always 20/20. If you'd known beforehand, but did nothing about it, then I suppose you could blame yourself if you felt the need to berate yourself and do penance. But let's say you free-flew 2 Ks in the same mews and nothing happened. Then #3 broke his neck. Puts a different spin on it, yes? Sometimes stuff happens that we simply can't predict and prevent.
Most people here have lost a bird at one time or another. If they haven't, they're either very good or very lucky.
Or, some are liars. I know a few (not here, I don't think). They'll report that they released their bird, when in fact it died - their fault or not. They lie just to protect their "perfect" image in the falconry community.
Only 7 states have legally recognized client/vet privilege and confidentiality. Yours and mine do. However, there are numerous exceptions to privlege -- like disclosures to law enforcement (i.e. criminal activities and investigations - animal abuse/neglect) and animal health agencies (i.e. contagious diseases). Read more here:
The falconry permit agent is the law enforcement arm of the state and FWS. To get around privilege, a wildlife agent will ask the permittee to submit a vet report.
it sounds like you might know the cost of a post-mortem, i don't know. please share at least a basic to worst case that you listed, i'm sure it's different from state to state.
Hard to say... depends on what the falconer agrees to, and how much the doctor and labs charge. Does the falconer want tox screens, and for how many and what household chemicals, poisons, or environmental contaminants? How many tissue samples and slides, and for which blood parasites, viruses, bacterium, etc.? Tox and blood alone can run hundreds of dollars.
If I do post, I limit my posts to gross exams - which for me (@ a discount), run around $250. That depends on how long the doc spends examining the carcass before he finds something (IF he finds something).
... as long as goodwill an intentions were at least attempted that's about all anyone can do to keep the ethics for the sport of falconry top notch.
I'll go along with that. You're talking about vet care for a live bird here. Different issue. I was talking about the idea of postmortems being required (forced) by an agent on birds that died suddenly for unknown reasons - just to prove the falconer didn't kill it.