newage raptor medicine

[killjoy]

Split from: VitaHawk

May 26, 2008 8:53:42 GMT -5 Migisi said:

A free-living bird has the opportunity to consume a good variety of foodstuffs in the wild in which essential trace minerals are found. Most of us feed what our bird takes during hunting... upland game and/or waterfowl. We don't usually serve insects, worms, snakes, frogs, etc. which free-living birds do eat frequently. We purchase pen-raised quail, day old cockrels, and mice from breeders that also have not been fed everything they'd normally eat when in a wild state. Most are raised on prepared pellets. Even though these are considered whole food, I can only deduce that they do not contain all the nutrition we think they do. Given this, I use supplements (Vitahawk for maintenance, and switch to Necton Bio in spring).

Some years ago, I read research on iodine and the thyroid's production of hormones which affect feather production and molting. The data concluded that naturally occurring iodine is particularly deficient in soil in the Great Lakes region (where I live), hence iodine is deficient in plant life, therefore in the wild herbivores. So, feeding my birds a diet of wild rabbits and squirrels doesn't necessarily mean that deficiencies can't and don't occur.

Just FYI: Signs of iodine deficiency**:
1) enlarged thyroid gland
2) immune deficiency - the birds easily develop infections,
3) depression and lethargy - the metabolic rate of the birds is decreased,
4) abnormalities of the skin and feathers,
5) reproductive problems - birds experience increased embryo mortality and decreased hatchability (particularly important regarding released peregrines).

Years ago, I visited a falcon breeder out west who'd studied nutrition in birds for years. He fed his feeder mice blocks of dried seaweed/kelp exclusively, and fed them to his birds. He recorded quick and excellent improvement in falcons suffering foot lesions and unexplained feather problems. He concluded through his experiments that seaweed/kelp cured bumblefoot in record time, and drastically improved feather quality. A major source for iodine is... kelp.

The caged-bird people have known about iodine deficiency for decades, and have added correct amounts to their prepared seeds and pellets. I look for and use supplements containing iodine - because of where I live.

**Note: Too much iodine given can cause the same signs and health problems. As MarkT wrote: "too much of a good thing can be bad".

Migisi.......

I LOVE YOU!!!!!

Not really, but I think you know what I mean!

I read on the IFF that some people are using honey to help with molting, has anybody ever heard of that? I heard that it is working great also. I can only guess that raptors dont get sugar in quantity in their diet, and the sugar in honey triggers something.

as for the rats that eat kelp, you say too much of a good thing is bad. if I were to raise rats, could they live excluively on kelp? if so could you feed a bird too much of kelp rat and it hurt, and would this take place of thyroid pills for a molting bird?

Is there any food or suppliment that I could feed a bird to build an immune system against frounce? I have heard that a BOP that eats birds as a diet should have less of a chance contracting frounce.... BUT, I read a log with a coopers that got frounce. Can I give a bird the equilevent of a glass of orange juice to fight illnesses or desieses?

and if you dont know what I mean, I love the experience you bring to the table. It is truly priceless and I do appreciate it.



Mike

[Migisi]

May 26, 2008 19:51:13 GMT -5 killjoy said:

Split from: VitaHawkMigisi.......I LOVE YOU!!!!! Not really, but I think you know what I mean!

Well, thankee kindly. I love to be loved. ;D

I read on the IFF that some people are using honey to help with molting, has anybody ever heard of that? I heard that it is working great also. I can only guess that raptors dont get sugar in quantity in their diet, and the sugar in honey triggers something.

Well, I don't know of any wild BOP that rubs honey through its feathers, or eats honey. (The Honey Buzzard eats wasps and bee larvae, not honey.) Over the years, I've heard of all kinds of anecdotal home remedies for this and that, but I avoid them until they've been proven safe and effective.

I'd read some articles years ago about dressing wounds with honey to speed up healing. While it appeared to work well to regenerate skin and close wounds fast, the downside was -- if infection was present in the wound -- the sugar fed the infection, which was then trapped under the fast-healed new skin. Not good. So, with any new idea, always try to anticipate pitfalls before jumping in feet first. Just my humble advice. (I use a hydro-therapy regime exclusively for open wounds.)

as for the rats that eat kelp, you say too much of a good thing is bad. if I were to raise rats, could they live excluively on kelp? if so could you feed a bird too much of kelp rat and it hurt, and would this take place of thyroid pills for a molting bird?

His birds were fed the usual fare - a whole and varied diet including the kelp mice (as an iodine supplement)... along with a vitamin/mineral supplement mixture he'd made. He had REALLY beautiful and healthy birds.

Regarding giving ANY type of thyroid (sheep, cow) to quicken a molt, I strongly advise against it. I know there's some old literature still circulating about this, but I have first-hand experience. A rehab center I co-op with used sheep thyroid to kick start a molt in a hawk with burned feathers. The feathers molted alright... all at once. The hawk was totally naked in a week, and every new feather that grew in was cork screwed or deformed permanently. (Again, the pitfall.) After two years failing to get good feathers to grow in, the hawk had to be euthanized.

Lots of light, fresh water, lots of good food and supplements (in spring, I use a little pinch of Necton Bio daily for a week only, then switch to Vitahawk) will do the job just fine. Occasionally, I've used full spectrum lighting in the mews for an hour or two a day for stubborn molt cases, thus increasing the photo period which triggers a molt earlier.

Is there any food or suppliment that I could feed a bird to build an immune system against frounce? I have heard that a BOP that eats birds as a diet should have less of a chance contracting frounce.... BUT, I read a log with a coopers that got frounce. Can I give a bird the equilevent of a glass of orange juice to fight illnesses or desieses?

As you know, there are some BOP species which are more susceptible to one disease than another species. And within those species, some individual birds are more susceptible than another bird. There is no one magic pill (vitamin/mineral) to insure good health or stave off disease. Not in birds, and not in us. ALL the vitamins/minerals in food are designed to work together i.e. calcium depends on vitamin D, etc. A deficiency of one will cause another not to work... and visa versa - too much of one throws the body out of balance. Too little and/or too much gives nutrition-caused diseases a foothold. It's this bio-chemical balance we seek for overall health and resistance.

IMHO (and experience), when one maintains his bird in healthy high condition (especially during hunting season), keeps his mews clean, feeds a wide variety of whole food (plus supplements) obtained from good sources, and provides fresh clean water daily, the occurence of disease is reduced significantly. I sound like a broken record on this, but I'm basing it on years of personal first-hand experience, and the experience of my own mentors.

and if you dont know what I mean, I love the experience you bring to the table. It is truly priceless and I do appreciate it.

I appreciate your appreciation.

[killjoy]

www.falconryforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=820898#post820898

Here is the link to it. I was stunned how well it seems to work. I figured hawks and falcons dont eat honey or sugar in the wild, BUT since honey is a nonman made item, then it couldnt hurt too bad, it was just intresting to read about.

[Migisi]

May 27, 2008 13:09:17 GMT -5 killjoy said:

www.falconryforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=820898#post820898

Here is the link to it. I was stunned how well it seems to work. I figured hawks and falcons dont eat honey or sugar in the wild, BUT since honey is a nonman made item, then it couldnt hurt too bad, it was just intresting to read about.

Two posters mention:

"...but also using lots of quail also this year,,,has well has pheas n rabbit.."

"... egg yolk from free ranging hens, fat squirrels, fat field rats, spiny tailed lizards, fattened wild caught quail...".

So, is it the sugar? Or the varied diet they're feeding? I think the latter.

[forestfalcon]

May 27, 2008 13:09:17 GMT -5 killjoy said:

www.falconryforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=820898#post820898

Here is the link to it. I was stunned how well it seems to work. I figured hawks and falcons dont eat honey or sugar in the wild, BUT since honey is a nonman made item, then it couldnt hurt too bad, it was just intresting to read about.

Well, strychnine, nicotine, cocaine, a huge variety of plants, bacteria, viruses, fungi, and parasites, (just to name a few) can be/and are extremely dangerous...and they are non-man made. This is never a good argument to make in regards to administering something you don't know about to any creature.

Instead of being in a rush to hurry through the moult, just give your bird plenty of nutritious food items, plenty of light, and time. It's better to be a little patient than to try a bunch of home remedies that could end up being harmful.

[killjoy]

Well forestfalcon,
Thanx for the vote of confidence, BUT..
Strychnine.. I will never kiss a rattle snake to ingest any, Cocaine is a man made drug from processing the Coco bean, Love me a mushroom on a salad. On occasion do I NOT inhale a cigar while enjoying a beer.

I knew posting that would get someones to respond like that. But the way I figure, if I can eat it, and its all natural, it cant be that bad. How did the guy figure that kelp was a great way to treat bumble foot? in science its all trial and error, but I am not tryung to cure stress marks on the feathers with rat poision. A little credit please, meanie.

So a varied diet is a BOP glass of orange juice, Intresting.
I dont want to rush a bird thru a molt, yet, but i have heard of other guys that want a fresh molted bird at a certain time of year. so they thyroid up the bird in hopes of speeding the process. I would rather give honey then a medical pill to a bird to help it.
If I ever get to that point.

[forestfalcon]

I guess you missed my point. The point is, just because it's "all natural" doesn't mean that it is anywhere remotely safe. Don't believe everything that you read/hear. Anyone can put info on the internet, whether it's accurate or safe, well, that's up to you to figure out. It's irresponsible to say things like "in science, it's all trial and error." We should not be trying experiments on our raptors with random home remedies.

There is a very generic saying that comes in handy here: "just because you can, doesn't mean you should."

The folks that use thyroid pills, or anything else to speed up the moult, IMO, don't have the bird's best interest in mind.

PS: Strychnine comes from a tree, not rattlesnakes.

[Migisi]

May 28, 2008 6:28:37 GMT -5 killjoy said:

So a varied diet is a BOP glass of orange juice, Intresting.

That, and good husbandry practices. Here's a good and easily understood article on Good Trace Minerals and Bad Toxic Minerals www.healingwithnutrition.com/adisease/add-adhd/addminerals.html . "All natural" doesn't always mean healthy. Some naturally occuring minerals are poison at any level.

I dont want to rush a bird thru a molt, yet, but i have heard of other guys that want a fresh molted bird at a certain time of year. so they thyroid up the bird in hopes of speeding the process.

Just curious. From what you've heard, can you explain why these falconers want the molt completed by a certain time? What's the rush? Free-living hawks are able to fly and hunt efficiently while they're still molting. A falconry bird can too. The older the bird, the longer the molt takes to complete. Our old falcon molted all year 'round - one feather or another at a time. That never hampered her ability to take down a drake mallard or cock pheasant. Nor does an unsummed feather or two prevent my old hawk from taking game.

Or, is the real issue that these falconry birds are in such bad feather that their falconers are embarrassed - their bird's condition reflecting badly on them (i.e. the old saying, "The mark of a good falconer is the condition of his bird.")? If that's the case, I could see why they'd want an overnight molt.

[killjoy]

Sorry FF,
I thought I heard somewhere that it is a toxin in rattler venom. I know just cause it is all natural its not always good for you or others, so i am not going to try to experiment with birds and their diet, I am not qualified to and I am scared enough just taking the test for licensing. I do like herbal rehemidies for my self, and I would be suprised if there wernt any out there for birds.

Migisi,

To tell you the truth, he wanted the bird ready for sky trials, so he wanted to induce molting at a certain point of the year.
now that you point that out, it does seem crazy.
I have also read questions on here about inducing a molt, for what I dont know.

[Migisi]

May 28, 2008 11:17:22 GMT -5 killjoy said:

Migisi, To tell you the truth, he wanted the bird ready for sky trials, so he wanted to induce molting at a certain point of the year.

I see... for competition and potential prize money. I'll leave that subject alone.

[dirthawker]

just because some say it works and doesn't harm anything doesn't mean that it is good. you can still find stuff out there on how if you get bit by a snake to use a stun gun on the wound to counter act the poison. I have probably 4-9 people come in my shop per year for a stun gun for this purpose. it doesn't work it just incapacitates you does nothing for the poison. also just because it doesn't hurt you doesn't mean that it wont hurt the bird, their physiology is different than ours.

[killjoy]

DH,
Do you still sell them the stun gun?

Or look at them and tell them no you idoit, it wont work.

[dirthawker]

I usually tell them it wont work and show them the medical stuff on the net. but most of the time they buy it anyway. I also have some real weird people here. one lady comes in every week for a milk carton of BBs to sprinkle on her lawn to keep the bad mojo out of her property or aliens or something like that. lol

[Migisi]

May 28, 2008 14:40:03 GMT -5 dirthawker said:

one lady comes in every week for a milk carton of BBs to sprinkle on her lawn to keep the bad mojo out of her property or aliens or something like that. lol

Tee hee. Does she wear a tin foil hat? Maybe you oughta make a few and stock them for her - to buy with her BBs.

I'd sure hate to be standing in the open when she mows her lawn.

[dirthawker]

I keep trying new designs of tin hats but she keeps telling me they are all wronge and she makes a better one.