Rabbit dogs: dropping or chasing at the flush?

[Kitana]

Hi there,

I have started training my dog for future use in snowshoe hare hawking and so far, he does pretty well for a 3 months old sheltie! lol Okay I'm just at basic obedience, recalls, etc so no wonder it goes so well...

However, I am thinking ahead and planning my training, trying to see what problems I will face and how to go around them. The thing that worries me the most is what happens with the dog when the hare starts running? Do the dog gives chase, or not?

I would be worried by a dog running after the hare, taking the risk of tumbling on the hawk/hare fight, and hurting the hawk. Or frightening the hawk. Or being footed by the hawk. You see? Too many things can go wrong... Is there a "normal accepted" way to manage rabbit hunting dogs under a hawk?

[Falcon Boy]

I've never hawked snowshoes, but i did hawk cottontails with a doxie and redtails. The doxies always chase the rabbits, as if they don't the rabbit probably won't leave the cover, aka making it useless to have a dog in the first place. The dog would be left behind if it was taught to down upon a flush, which would be hard to teach anyways.
Doxies chase the rabbit and keep it moving and the hawk takes the rabbit when/if it can.

The dog running in on the hawk is purely a socialization issue IMO. You can't just take a random dog out and run it with your bird. The dog and bird need to respect each others space and introduced properly. Someone who runs dogs more will have to chime in about how to properly introduce your dogs and bird.

[Joby]

pretty good synopsis Noah and unless the dog is a greyhound, it won't catch the rabbit very often. Best way to socialize the dog/bird is to do it early and when the hawk is given food. Have the dog on a leash and let it walk around the bird. If it tries to rush or jump the bird, yank it back and yell "No". Once you run them free, you best be prepared for if the bird grabs your dog. Give me a PM and I can give you a quick rundown of what to do in that case. Time is of the essence at that point.
-Joby

[Kitana]

Okay! So I misunderstood the concept of a rabbit dog entirely! I guess I saw its role similar as a flushing dog for gamebird... my wrong!

So if we want the dog to give chase, then my dog will be great. I already know what to do if the bird grabs the dog, and since my dog will have a super-deep coat chances are that only hair will be caught... But it is a bad experience anyway. My concern is more about the dog's behavior around the bird. My bird hates dogs, especially jumpy ones, and I think my dog will be like that. The hawk is already used to see the dog around the mews, doesn't scream at it anymore (the dog has been associated with the meals, but never been in close contact, I will do it after the moult).

[K9JaY]

A general training trick to get a neutral reaction from your dog towards anything (people, dogs, cats, cars, etc.) is you start reward/focus obedience training your dog with food without distraction. Have a simple obedience routine where your dog recalls or comes to you and focuses on you using a food reward. Keep the reward up near your face, with the dog staring, just totally focused on your face and that treat (use something meaty, like summer sausage). Don't hold the focus too short or too long. If you lose your pup's attention, wave the magic treat in front of his nose, and bring the treat back to your face. At the point of complete focus, give an excited, upbeat release command and give the reward at the same time. You can teach your pup to sit next to you, or down next to you with the same focus up near your face. End it the same way, and build that attention to you.

When your puppy gets used to this routine, you can gradually bring in distractions at a distance, and do the same routine. Every time you play the reward/focus game, you move your game with the pup closer and closer to the distraction.

Introducing distractions that way is a very nonconfrontational, neutral way to get a pup comfortable with an object you don't want him to be concerned with. If you go through that process first, it's very easy after to reinforce with a correction that says to the pup, "No. I want you to ignore the bird all the time." The pup says "Oh, ok. Just like how I ignore it in training. I know how this works."

[Kitana]

Thanks, that's how I train dogs too, and my puppy is responding very well to training. The training you described I call it "fix", and so far he does an excellent, 30 seconds duration fix with no distrations around. With distractions such as my cats we are up to 8-10 seconds. I will let the bird moult free-lofted, and will start bringing the puppy in the mews while the bird eats. So far the dog has always been present, but in the preparation room only, clearly visible to the hawk but out of reach.

[diane]

Joby wrote: unless the dog is a greyhound, it won't catch the rabbit very often.

Actually my first Vizsla caught rabbits on a regular basis if allowed to chase. Whippets are good at catching rabbits as well - both cotton tails and jack rabbits. Both breeds can catch rabbits without Hawks in the field. I originally taught my V to stop to flush - my passage Harris would not hunt if the dog chased - she eventually got over it - it took years. But she is now 17 years old and will now catch a rabbit in front of a vizsla at full speed.

I like a vizsla that will point rabbit - and stop to flush. I can always send her forward - but then Vs are much faster then doxies. <G>

Diane

[Joby]

Actually, when I was referring to a greyhound, I was meaning any "larger" dog. Kitana, I believe is training a sheltie as a hunting companion. I don't know that shelties would be able to catch a running rabbit too often. Any dog, including a mini-doxie can catch them with the element of surprise on their side. But to run down a rabbit, it takes a much more long legged dog.
-Joe

[diane]

My confusion - I took the breed literally.
Diane

[UTLongWinger]

I actually just started looking into JRTs to hunt with my Harris Hawk. there are a surprising amount of them for free due to the fac that they are extremely high energy. I figure my Pointer can keep her occupied at home, and she could use a friend to play with, but I need a dog that can get into cover.

[kenbro77]

I have a lab mix. She looks like a lab and acts and responds like a lab but smaller. The way I work my dog: I hunt off a t-perch. The dog runs around while we walk the field, she stays within 20' to 30' of me. Basically like having 2 more people flushing with me. When a rabbit is flushed the dog takes chase the same time as the bird. I give my dog the stop command and she runs back to me. She thinks my Harris is her buddy, (hasn't been footed yet,LOL) so she keeps trying to take chase by watching the bird. I also taught her the "Leave It" command. This keeps her from interfering with the kill. All I really want my dog in the field for is to take the place of brush beaters since I hunt alone. I tought her the commands, Sit, Stay, Heel, Stop, Come, Leave it. Those seem to work great for me.