Post by scfalconry on May 15, 2006 14:48:14 GMT -5
Via FB's forum... I'd like to enlist the help of falconers that have, currently do or have hunted with someone that does train GHO's for falconry. Falconry defined as hunting with a raptor. not pet keeping an owl.
I've been searching the internet and other resources pretty thouroughly and would like to share what I've found on the subject. Hope that others will also share their experience. Eventually this thread will be a very valuable resource for those wanting to take the same road I'm blindly trampling down. Even my bad experiences will be of value.. hope you will share yours experiences good or bad as well.
Marty
Last Edit: May 15, 2006 17:02:26 GMT -5 by scfalconry
Post by scfalconry on May 15, 2006 15:16:12 GMT -5
Ok... here is where I'm at on my journey. If anyone has any advice I'd be most intersted in hearing it. If I'm doing something that you think is right... let me know... If I'm doing something that is wrong please also let me know. just be ready to calmly discuss it in either event.
I have a 10 wk old GHO that is parent raised. the first day it would hiss, snap and lurch at me. Quite ferocious and intimidating.
I'm currently feeding it tidbits while it stands on my gloved left hand. I feed it tidbits with my right hand. Owls cannot focus on anyting that is close to them. This is part of the reason the meat is not placed on the glove. The owl would have to close it's eyes and feel around the glove to find the tidbit. The other reason is that if food is given from the glove it is reported that owls will constantly bite at the glove looking for food. ALong with this is the power in their feet is not something you want constantly demonstrated on the glove either.
I hold the tidbit out quite a distance and let the owl focus on it. I slowly bring it toward him and when it is exactly in front of his beak I give a soft audible whistle. he opens his mouth and gently takes the tidbit. BTW it wasn't always like this. I've had him about 10 days and I've had to use operant conditioning to calm him. He is fastly becoming a pleasure to be a round. Days ago.. when the tidbit was comming in he would snap and lurch at my right hand.... when he expressed this behavior I would halt the tidbits progress towards him and count to 10. Then resume the approach. Eventually he is learning that the nicer he behaves the sooner the tidbit gets there.
Another exercise for now is getting him used to being approached and picked up. Originally he would puff up, his and snap for several minutes. I have it down to a second or two defense posturing and then he calms and allows me to finish my approach. I've been setting him on a perch and giving him a few minutes alone. Then walk up to him and place gloved hand under him. Once his 2nd foot is on the glove I click to mark the event and then offer a tidbit with my right hand.
Also a recurring theme in the information I've found is weight management isn't that critical with owls. this makes appetitie less of a motivator and slows things down in comparison to training a hawk.
With a 10 wk old owl he is still growing the last of his feathers. So reducing his food allowance isn't acceptable at all. I'm feeding him unmeasured amounts of tidbits daily. Normally 1/2 to 3/4 of an adult grey squirrel. minus intestines. Food is offered during our 2-3 hour sessions given every evening, and only during this time. This avoids problems with him casting up his pellet.
His keel is barely discernable.... maybe one mm of edge can be felt. Durring our evening manning sessions I stroke his plumage and feel his keel and panel.
All seems to be going well so far and I hope to be introducing the lure soon... as well as changing the pick up off the perch routine into a step to the glove exercise.
Post by Falcon Boy on May 15, 2006 15:19:33 GMT -5
Here is what i have gathered through my research, it is pretty much what you have found as well-
-weight is not as important with GHO's, it is more of a trust bond, and weight does not have the same effect [to the same severity i should say] as it does with a hawk or falcon
-From what i have read, everyone in the USA has attempted imprints. I have not read of anyone here trying PR birds. I have heard once their eyes have changed color, your wasting your time.
- For falconry purposes in the states, they have taken rabbits and squirrels, havn't heard of anything else being taken
- I have read in other places it is best to pull the eyass as young as possible.
-Since the birds don't have crops, its usually a one kill outing if anything is caught
-They can be VERY possesive over a kill
once again this is just what i have read. My friend has teh CD from the guy, ill see if i can snag it for you Marty.
You had mentioned something in the other thread about not feeding the bird off the glove, i have not read this. What is the reasoning around that?
Falcon Boy Apprentice Falconry Administrator
Ethics make the individual, not the other way around.
Post by scfalconry on May 15, 2006 15:46:37 GMT -5
Problems with GHO's that have to be worked around. anyone have any ideas on training soulutions to these problems?
No crop.. loose appetite fast. Any tidbit given goes directly to the stomach. if you find yourself having to tidbit the bird occasionally to move it along in the woods then your in for a short hunt.
Eyes are fixed in the socket and field of vision is narrow. eys are so large they do not rotate in the socket. This doesn't allow the owl to focus on close up items and give is a limited peripheral vision. Falconer sees a rabbit bolt across an opening and the owl isn't looking in that direction. Owl never sees the slip. If falconer yells "HOHOHO" then owl turns to look at the falconer.
Sensitive hearing provides easy distraction. Bird rarely focoses on you like a hawk or falcon will.. it seems to always be finding something to puzzle over in another direction. Slows training and proves a distraction during hunting.
Making in... is difficult. Very stubborn to release caught prey. Haven't experienced this for myself yet... but hope to soon. However it is a common theme among those in the know.
I'll be giving my thoughts on each of these as time allows... would like to hear your thoughts as well. together we CAN advance the art of falconry with GHO's.
Boldly leaping into the unkown... hoping to not land on my face. <grin> Marty
Post by scfalconry on May 15, 2006 15:56:30 GMT -5
admin said:
once again this is just what i have read. My friend has teh CD from the guy, ill see if i can snag it for you Marty.
You had mentioned something in the other thread about not feeding the bird off the glove, i have not read this. What is the reasoning around that?
Re: The CD... i would dearly love a look at the CD. thanks in advance.
Re: No feeding from the glove.. I picked this up from the Brits. Don't know if it differs here in the states or not. haven't found many people to talk with yet. they say the owl will search the glove quite agressively anytime it is on the glove if it is feed from the glove. Doesn't matter if there is food there or not. it will death grip the glove and bite and tear at it trying to search for what isn't there. They can't focus their eyes on the glove.. and they close their eyes and search the glove. The problem is more pronounced with owls at hunting weight.
I had a 2nd hand anatum perigrine that was very aggressive toward the glove like this. It wasn't any fun with a 600 gram perigrine. I surely don't want a 39oz tiercel GHO tearing and picking at the glove.
BTW I did eventually use clicker methods.. to train the perigrine away from the unwanted behavior. It took quite awhile.... and wasted alot of training time that could have been used hunting or flying pigeons.
Post by Falcon Boy on May 15, 2006 16:01:02 GMT -5
scfalconry said:
No crop.. loose appetite fast. Any tidbit given goes directly to the stomach. if you find yourself having to tidbit the bird occasionally to move it along in the woods then your in for a short hunt.
To solve this, i would give small tidbits, tiny lil buggers, and vary it. Sometimes a tidbit, sometimes not.
scfalconry said:
Eyes are fixed in the socket and field of vision is narrow. eys are so large they do not rotate in the socket. This doesn't allow the owl to focus on close up items and give is a limited peripheral vision. Falconer sees a rabbit bolt across an opening and the owl isn't looking in that direction. Owl never sees the slip. If falconer yells "HOHOHO" then owl turns to look at the falconer.
Not quite sure what to do with this one... Throw a stick in the direction of the game? I think i'd just hope they hear the bunny running and look, which means falconer has to stay quiet
scfalconry said:
Sensitive hearing provides easy distraction. Bird rarely focoses on you like a hawk or falcon will.. it seems to always be finding something to puzzle over in another direction. Slows training and proves a distraction during hunting.
I've always heard that owls take longer to train and theirs not much you can do about it.
scfalconry said:
Making in... is difficult. Very stubborn to release caught prey. Haven't experienced this for myself yet... but hope to soon. However it is a common theme among those in the know
really well garnished lure that the bird is very well made to?
RE-CD, my friend is going to look for it.
Last Edit: May 15, 2006 16:02:44 GMT -5 by Falcon Boy
Falcon Boy Apprentice Falconry Administrator
Ethics make the individual, not the other way around.
Post by Master Yarak on May 15, 2006 16:22:45 GMT -5
Marty Wow! You really are going to give this thing a real shot! So far your methodology seems sound. I would introduce it to the lure and feed mostly there. You might try transferring off with a toss off piece and clicker. GHOs can carry approx 2.5 times their own weight so keep that in mind also. Weight management may not be as critical but food is still the best motivator. I have limited experience with them although we used one in a free flight program. He was trained to fly from a box to a hand held branch with a clicker and food reward then back to box. The cue to return was the opening of the box also garnished. Being a flight bird his weight was graphed and closely monitored. He was an imprint. I am looking forward to reading your progress Yarak
If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music he hears, however measured or far away
Post by scfalconry on May 15, 2006 16:41:52 GMT -5
No crop.. loose appetite fast. Any tidbit given goes directly to the stomach. if you find yourself having to tidbit the bird occasionally to move it along in the woods then your in for a short hunt.
I've been tinkering with the theory of randomly sized tidbits. Sometimes miniscule.. sometimes normal. Many people do jump ups with hawks and falcons and randomly give tidbits. If hunger is atleast somewhat a motivator with owls.. which I believe it is. Then calls to the glove for random reward may work. If it the owl ends up requiring a tidbit each and every call... then I'll just live with it.
Eyes are fixed in the socket and field of vision is narrow. Eyes are so large they do not rotate in the socket. This doesn't allow the owl to focus on close up items and give is a limited peripheral vision. Falconer sees a rabbit bolt across an opening and the owl isn't looking in that direction. Owl never sees the slip. If falconer yells "HOHOHO" then owl turns to look at the falconer.
Several of my other falconry birds have learned to trust that when I yell hohoho that I was infact on something. I never yelled hohoho just to trick them to move up. I think with several well placed baggies or hidden lures... the association of the HOHOHO cue will become strong enough that the owl will learn to do what my redtails have done. That is look where I'm looking and pointing at. Only time will tell if I'm right.
Sensitive hearing provides easy distraction. Bird rarely focuses on you like a hawk or falcon will.. it seems to always be finding something to puzzle over in another direction. Slows training and proves a distraction during hunting. This one I may have to just live with.. but I believe that the fact that I know why he is apparently distracted will help ease my frustration. this characteristic is the one that leads alot of people to say that owls are not intelligent. I may even find a way to work this into something productive.
Making in... is difficult. Very stubborn to release caught prey. Haven't experienced this for myself yet... but hope to soon. However it is a common theme among those in the know. One kill hunts are fine with me... Feeding gorging on a kill is not preferred but if thats the way it has to be then I'll earn to except that as well. However... I think introducing a lure with meat ties is the way to go. Get there quickly... staple the prey to the spot where the owl is. Then entice the owl off the taken prey with the lure that is dressed with ample amount of ready to eat chunks of meat. I've seen 4" square of astro turf lures that held no special instinctual appeal to BOPs other than the fact they knew from training that it had a MRE tied to it. After the hunks of meat were eaten the astroturf lure held little to no appeal to the bird.
Post by Falcon Boy on May 15, 2006 16:52:16 GMT -5
With the HOHOHO in hawks though, since they can see more, isnt it possible that they looked at you and happened to catch the motion out of the corner of their eye an owl wont see? To counter this, i would after the intial baggies in obvious places, use baggies that are off to the sides. Maybe then once the bird trusts the HOHOHO it would look for movement instead of directly at you.
One thing i would definatly do, is spend some time near train tracks and roads. That way those sounds wont freak the bird out. Also leave TV's, radio on etc.
As for the lure, as long as the bird learns to recognize it i dont think it really matters what it looks like.
Falcon Boy Apprentice Falconry Administrator
Ethics make the individual, not the other way around.
Post by scfalconry on May 15, 2006 16:53:42 GMT -5
Yarak..
thanks for popping in... Yep I'm actually going to give this my best shot. however misguided <grin>
After reading your last PM I was hoping to draw you into this. Said you've had some experience with GHO's.
I'm thinking when the first hunt session happens.. it will be hunting for a squirrel lure. I always did this with my other birds to reinforce that hunting was almost always succefull. Makes them believe that if they follow me long enough that I will eventually flush something. It may be made out of beaver hide and have a 40ft parachute cord tied to it... but you'll get a fair hunk of meat in trade if you land on it and allow me to make in. just like training any other animal. makes the goals easily attainable and reward for success... once it it burned in up the bar and repeat again and again. I'm dreaming way out ahead of myself.... I've still got hoppping to the fist and initial creance flights and lure intro ahead of me.... I am so looking forward to all of this... even if it goes badly. <grin> just adding to the experiences of my life. Scars and smiles alike.
Let me say this to all who want to obtain an owl (taken as a downey blue eyes)... That u are in for a lifelong prodject, they are difficult at best and stubborn. They require lots of time, way more than a hawk or falcon to train, and if can successfully hunt one u have done well. My wife's GHO is now at least 10 yrs or older and he is very stubborn, and has the attention span of a two yr old. He is a screamer and pissy and very footy when handled, so u have to watch where u put your hands at all times. *** TAKE NOTE***I dont' recommend a GHO to anyone unless u can train under someone who has handled and trained one and sucessfully fielded the bird. Or at the very least consult with a falconer currently flying one...my two cents..
Redtailnut has much more experience with owls than anyone here and maybe more than anyone in the US. A result of the UK differences and work.
I flew a couple owls while in England. I did not do the original training and I only flew them a couple times.
Making in and picking up, forget it. Time, time, time... 10 weeks with parents, I would say, have this bird with you 24/7. never leave it alone, if you can't be with it, put it with a TV. I could be wrong but it's what I would do (except I wouldn't do an owl).
Other than that, you seem to have a good grasp of the requirements.