Arizona - Generals vs Masters

[UTLongWinger]

In Arizona, There are more differences between Masters and Generals than in some other states. According to my state officials, I can only obtain 2 raptors in any 12 month period. So lets say next eyass season I want to release one of my kestrels, and purchase a new peregrine, I would not be allowed to do so. I have clarified this with our chairperson for falconry in the state, and he confirmed it.

As a master falconer I can purchase or transfer as many birds as I want, as long as I don't trap from the wild more than 2 birds, or as long as I dont posess more than 3 at any given time.

It is a crock of crap for them to tell a general that they cant purchase a bird, because they obtained 2 in a 12 month period, in Utah as a general you can purchase how ever many would fit on your permit, but you could only trap 2 from the wild.

[Falcon Boy]

This is quoted from the federal falconry standards-

b) More restrictive State laws. Nothing in this section shall be construed to prevent a State from making and enforcing laws or regulations not inconsistent with the standards contained in any convention between the United States and any foreign country for the protection of raptors or with the Migratory Bird Treaty Act, and which shall give further protection to raptors.

To me that says while states can make more restrictive laws, they cannot make looser laws. Utah to my understanding also allows golden eagle take, but due to federal regulations they cannot use that. If Utah's regs does allow for more than 2+2 birds in a 12 month period for generals, it goes against this-

(2) General (or equivalent) class. (i) A permittee shall be at least 18 years old;

(ii) A permittee shall have at least two years experience in the practice of falconry at the apprentice level or its equivalent;

(iii) A permittee may not possess more than two raptors and may not obtain more than two raptors for replacement birds during any 12-month period; and

(iv) A permittee may not take, transport, or possess any golden eagle or any species listed as threatened or endangered in part 17 of this subchapter.

So even if the state allows more, technically the feds can still overrule and nail you. Thats my understanding of it anyways.

[UTLongWinger]

the federal laws say that you can only take 2 raptors from the wild, they do not limit the number of birds that you purchas, as long as you do not posess a number of birds greater than is allowed by your class designation. I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying.

Arizona isnt letting me take 2 + 2, they are letting me take 2.... period... no replacement birds, no purchased birds, nothing. Unfortunately I did not find out about this until after I trapped 2 kestrels as hold-over birds. So I guess I will be flying kestrels till eyass season 2009, because I trapped them on the last day of trapping season.

[HawkingRage]

Note to self. Don't move to Arizona

[Falcon Boy]

arizonafalconer said:

the federal laws say that you can only take 2 raptors from the wild, they do not limit the number of birds that you purchas, as long as you do not posess a number of birds greater than is allowed by your class designation. I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying.

Arizona isnt letting me take 2 + 2, they are letting me take 2.... period... no replacement birds, no purchased birds, nothing. Unfortunately I did not find out about this until after I trapped 2 kestrels as hold-over birds. So I guess I will be flying kestrels till eyass season 2009, because I trapped them on the last day of trapping season.

Where in my quote from the federal falconry standards does it say wild trapped raptors? Maybe i'm just missing it?

[Joby]

FB,
My state guy interprets the regs to mean 2 from the wild, with 1 replacement for each within a 12 month period. He said that according to his interpretation, this didn't cover captive bred birds. According to him, a General can purchase and transfer as many CB birds onto/off his license as he wants as long as he doesn't have any more than 2 on his license at one time. Guess I should check with my fed contact also, though.
-Joe

[UTLongWinger]

ok, here is the email I got from my state: this has nothing to do with MY interperatation, I completely understand the federal regs regarding obtaining raptors. The state of Arizona misinterperated the law, when we compare what other states have interperated the federal laws as.

ME:
Bill,
Some Clarification on this if you wouldn't Mind:

G. A Class II licensee shall not possess more than 2 raptors at a time. The raptors may be any species except a golden eagle or a species listed as endangered or threatened. A Class II licensee shall not obtain more than 2 raptors during any 12-month period.

H. A Class III licensee shall not possess more than 3 raptors at a time. The raptors may be of any species. A Class III licensee shall not obtain more than 2 raptors taken from the wild during any 12-month period, but may obtain raptors from other lawful sources within the 3-raptor possession limit.

According to this, a General can not obtain more than 2 birds during a 12 month period, what if I choose to release one of my kestrels this summer and purchase a bird? I understand I cannot trap another wild bird, but there shouldn't be a difference between a master and a general when it comes to purchasing birds. Is this a mis-print or are Generals really restricted from purchasing birds?

Bill Burger:
Generals are not restricted from purchasing birds; however, a general can only obtain 2 raptors (wild-caught, purchase, gift, or whatever) within a 12-month period. I hate to point this out at this time, but you should have obtained and read the regulations prior to capturing 2 kestrels. You now can not obtain another bird for 12 months.

ME:
Generals are not restricted from purchasing birds; however, a general can only obtain 2 raptors (wild-caught, purchase, gift, or whatever) within a 12-month period. I hate to point this out at this time, but you should have obtained and read the regulations prior to capturing 2 kestrels. You now can not obtain another bird for 12 months.

Bill Burger:
I can't really comment much on other states, but our regulations generally follow the federal regulations fairly closely. The federal wording for general class falconers follows, with "ii" being the applicable part. Although the word "replacement" is used in the federal rules, per prior communication with Kamile in NM, all birds beyond the initial bird taken by an apprentice are considered "replacements", and the number of birds allowed to be taken by a General is still 2 in any 12-month period. We avoided use of the potentially confusing term "replacement"; and our AZ falconry rules have not changed since 1999.

From the federal rules:

(2) General (or equivalent) class. (i) A permittee shall be at least 18 years old;

(ii) A permittee shall have at least two years experience in the practice of falconry at the apprentice level or its equivalent;

(iii) A permittee may not possess more than two raptors and may not obtain more than two raptors for replacement birds during any 12-month period; and

(iv) A permittee may not take, transport, or possess any golden eagle or any species listed as threatened or endangered in part 17 of this subchapter.

[snafu918]

Here's the key language:

(iii) A permittee may not possess more than two raptors and may not obtain more than two raptors for replacement birds during any 12-month period; and

This doesn't say anything about where you obtain them from it just says obtain. So if you buy them or trap them you can still only obtain 2 replacement birds per 12 month period. Granted other states do interpret this differently but from a purely technical standpoint Arizona is correctly interpreting these regulations. Now I think we all agree that they are not following the "spirit" of the regulations and that's only partly their fault, some of the blame lands with the people that wrote and approved the current federal regulations because they are not specific enough in this case.

Phoenix AZ was a $hi7 hole for falconry (where the regs are concerned) and I'm so glad I moved I am so happy to not have to deal with Bill or Camille anymore.

(I don't support these interpretations but AZFG and the USFWS in that region does)


If you want another fun fact about AZ, as an apprentice if you hold any bird other than a RT or a kestrel you are breaking the law.

If you hold a bird on your fist (even RTs or Kestrels) that is not your own while you have a bird on your permit then you are breaking the law.

This is because the federal regulations use the word possess when it refers to the birds on your permit and when you look up the word possess you get the following :

(Look at definition 2b)

www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/possess

Because of this definition of the word possess just having another persons RT on your glove would in fact put you in violation of the regs. Again this is not the spirit of the law and as always AZ and USFWS in that region are ignorant and only care about pushing the paper and don't give a rats ass about falconers in their jurisdiction.

[shortwingn]

It didn't say anything about putting a non MBTA bird on your licence. Perhaps that might work for you?