Most zoos wouldn't want 'em. I work with a CB imprint Harris that someone really screwed up raising. She mantles constantly while eating on the glove, and when she finishes whatever you have for her she starts bating nonstop. I'm working on ways to reduce the bating and feel that I'm making progress. Anyway, point is- if someone offered to donate a CB Harris to the zoo I work at, it wouldn't just be a "no", it would be a "HELL NO!"
What I'm curious about is the new reputation Harris Hawks will recieve if apprentices are allowed to fly them. I think many generals and masters will turn their noses up at them, and refuse to fly them because they're now an "apprentice bird"...... It happened to RT's.......
FB and Dodes, VERY GOOD POINTS, got me rethinking my opinion, I've been around mostly experinenced falconers, and only a few true apprentinces. Got me thinking of all the people who started and never made the second year. I'm for the trapping of passage birds to continue. For the ability to release of a more mature and healther bird to the the wild with a better chance of surviving, which can't be done with a CB bird.
One master i know insists that his apprentices fly a passage FRT the first year. He wont let his apprentices fly a kbird or a MRT no matter how bad the want to. If you don't want to do that you're welcome to find another sponsor. However, he is a great sponsor and you're lucky to get him. End result- his apprentices fly a passage FRT. It will work the same with C/B HHs. I still contend that lowering the age will affect the sons and daughters of master falconers and very few other people. I know several very mature, reliable 12 y/o kids, but i've worked with boy scouts for over 40 years. In that length of time you're bound to meet some exceptional young ppl. But only one or two of them have mentioned an interest in falconry to me. That isn't to say that i would accept the responsibility of sponsoring one of them as an apprentice falconer. The risk of injury and the liability therein is enough to make me think long and hard about it and even then, i'd probably decline the request. Let's give the states, the clubs and the individuals a little more policing power.
Post by Falcon Boy on Mar 22, 2005 17:48:36 GMT -5
i agree to clubs, but its the states that worry mine, esp. with the person in charge of marylands falconry right now, they have been "stirring up the pot" if you will.... spreading false information, misquoting, not giving information, im not a happy camper with them at the moment.
Falcon Boy Apprentice Falconry Administrator
Ethics make the individual, not the other way around.
Firsly thank you all very much for your take on these new regs of the 7 email only posting groups I belong to all chatting about these new regs and all of them not explaining a thing
This is where this forum differs and is and always will be better than those groups as things are discussed more with novices in mind - oh and this english person in mind
Okay once I fathomed that CB was not a Common Buzzard and was infact Captive Bred that also helped
Here in the UK I would say 98% of all falconers start with a Harris Hawk. They are all CB and I have only heard of one or two who have not killed their own quarry yet and that was owners error.
We in the UK have no sponser system so many armed with just a book then they get a baby CB HH and they get it flying free and hunting.
These birds are fantastic beginners birds.
My question to you all is how come the whole of the UK can be wrong? Also we are no better falconers than any other nationality so why would you not be able to train a CB HH to Kill and you all have sponsers to show you how.
I do understand that after say a year what do you do with the CB bird then as you can hardly let it loose to basically send it to its death?
Here in the UK after the first season many are sold on to new owners others are kept and the lucky ones are kept till they are old and die.
Harris Hawks are formidible hunters, very clever and sometimes too clever, great for flying with others like a friends bird in a cast but just as happy with only you.
Easily adaptable and quick to learn they are a great beginners bird and are often a preferred bird for a falconers life time of flying, I know many falconers who only have a HH and have flown everything else and still say the HH is the best all rounder.
With regard to the age limit being dropped from 14 to 12 - please correct me but you all have sponsers so am I right in presuming that you are not allowed to get a bird unless your sponser okay's it?
I do agree that many 12 year olds are not physically strong enough to cope with the daily responsibilities involved with raptor care.
But be honest how many adults are not up for the task either but because of their age it is not an issue
As some have said atleast now their children can get more involved
The transport rules sound fabulous I can think of several people who this will benefit already.
All in all these new proposed rules sound a step in the right direction of intergration between regulatory bodies.
And when you have ironed out all the creases that these rules will come in sooner than the 5 years.
not being able to train the HH is not the concern we have. There is no doubt that a cb HH is more docile than a wild caught RT and is just as capable of making kills. I think an apprentice should have to go through the experience of trapping and manning a WILD bird, for this is the only way to truly experience what falconry is. It is also a test of ones true desire and willingness to make this sport a part of their life. HH's are great birds and I will always fly them but I will never forget trapping, training and hunting my first RT. I plan on trapping another RT next season,
I have sponsored two people. One quit when the new wore off and he realized hunting was work. The other person doesnt listen to a damn thing I tell him. I got him to bring his bird over to go hunt 6weeks after he trapped it. It flew into a tree and sat there. When I asked about his weight he told me he hadn't weighed it in over a week! It makes me cringe to think about these people having a nonreleasable CB HH. They havent earned the right to have that responsibility.
Respectfully, Falconry: Function: noun 1 : the art of training hawks to hunt in cooperation with a person 2 : the sport of hunting with hawks.
I'm not so sure that capturing passage birds is a prerequisite to being falconer. Personally, i love trapping. Nothing is more exciting to me than capturing a huge FRT and watching it's progress from trap day until free flight. But that's my choice. If the apprentice and sponsor are in agreement, if there is a contingency plan in place for the HH should the apprenetice quit falconry for whatever reason, and if this reg goes through... then let it happen.
I know that websters dictionary doesnt mention anything about trapping. I just believe its a good experience for an apprentice to go through. I think its more gratification for a newbie to actually train a wild bird, and it shows more dedication. On the other hand, I would love for an apprentice to buy a harris hawk and then end up giving it to me when he quits. Maybe thats why they proposed that 5 bird for masters rule, too handle the overflow of birds that have been given up. Yea! now that I think about it I like these new rules ;D
It concernes me in a confused way that with all the regulations and aggro a person has to go through to be able to do Falconry in your country that so many do not go onto the second year.
Here in the UK we have no legalities apart from ensuring you have paperwork for the bird. You buy the bird on Monday, you muddle through and by Thursday you decide its not for you, you place a forsale add and a week later your birdless again. - I know too simple I agree
But in the states I thought before you get a bird you would have already expereinced flying, hunting etc so nothing should be a novelty or a chore/surprise by then.
I think I need to find the thread which does it step by step in points the process. As I find it facinating how one sport/hobby can be 100% the same in basics but be practised so 100% differently
The only concern with the lowering of the age would be if the child was not your own - in that case I would not spend any given second alone with that child without one of its parents present or at worst another adult. In this day and age of child abuse accusations do not ever leave yourself exposed. It is a sad fact but a very true one. And even when a false accusation is proved, people will always remember it.
Also if that child has an accident like falls and breaks its arm that can bring an nice lot of charges and I am thinking here in the UK, in the USA its 100 times worse.
As to the comments of breeders not hunting well here in the UK most of our members who breed, do both, may not be every day but every other.
FB is right write to the people proposing these changes with detailed and clear reasons why you feel they are either wrong or right, how they can be improved and what would be ideal.
But I know writing a physical letter can often be a chore which we forget to do
Maybe FB could organise something where members could email the forum including full name and address contact phone number etc and then as a forum FB could present the thoughts and views of this website and its members collectively including all the individual letters..
As this forum is really a club in its own right with a voice and a membership whose collective views should be heard.
When i heard about the change in regs i had many of the same arguements that were posted here. In fact fincher and i were very much on the same page regarding the new regs.
However, i spent some time up at friends house this weekend. She is the gal who got me into falconry, we spoke quite a bit about the new regs. We both went over all the points that have been made here, but ultimately came to the final conclusion.
This is a loosening of the falconry regs. How often have you heard the old timers complain that it shouldn't be regulated at all? If we as a community vote to KEEP regulations in place, how are we ever going to get them loosened again?
This is a GIFT from the feds. If we turn it down, they may not offer another, and they may refuse when we ASK for it.
What it will ULTIMATELY do, is require the falconry community to police itself more. No more paper sponsors, more active apprenticeship info and coaching in state clubs, more active upkeep of records of potential sponsors, and more responsibility when we see a fellow falconer breaking the law.
This is something we SHOULD do, its also something we should not deny, regardless of our feelings on it, as it is a LARGE step in the direction the sport should go, completely deregulated.