Falcon Boy, ANY additional training techniques, whether it be kiting, ballooning, jump ups (with or w/o weights), etc. are just that - additions to what comes "naturally" to any bird - flying. Such training may encompass trying to improve condition strength, etc. OR to "shape" behavior.
Hence why i don't do any of that stuff I will fix the name of the thread, i hadn't noticed it. If you want to see a falcon catching bunnies at nafa from a waiting on, i am going to try and get there this year. With the price of gas, i may not make it.
Falcon Boy Apprentice Falconry Administrator
Ethics make the individual, not the other way around.
I am just not a believer in jump ups or weight training of any kind. My birds do all right without all that stuff.
I agree with you. I've never seen the need either.
I was at a raptor conference some years ago, and had the opportunity to view several radiographs of hairline fractures to femurs and tibias on falconry hawks from doing jump ups. And there has indeed been ligament and tendon injuries from weighting hawks' legs. Personally, I see no reason to chance hurting my birds needlessly.
This is an interesting statement Migsi, and i would like you to eleborate if you can. How were they able to determine that these fractures were from doing jump ups? Ive heard of birds breaking legs batting from tethered perches, does that mean we should do away with the perch. I absolutely would never put a bird in unnescessary risk, but a few jump ups to build strength, i think is hardly that, especially when i see my pmrt come out of a soar and slam into the ground, fall off a cliff and roll 10 ft, only to hop up again and put an end to a rather clever bunnys life.
Well Modoc, I'll ask you the same question. How do you know that the weight training is actually building muscle or even helping for that matter. Give me the clinical studies that have been done on weight training. You may think its actually working, but, you really don't know. Usually when someone buys something, their not willing to admit that it really didn't work or that they got ripped off. Not saying that this product falls into that catagory, but, thats the way life is.
Well Modoc, I'll ask you the same question. How do you know that the weight training is actually building muscle or even helping for that matter. Give me the clinical studies that have been done on weight training. You may think its actually working, but, you really don't know. Usually when someone buys something, their not willing to admit that it really didn't work or that they got ripped off. Not saying that this product falls into that catagory, but, thats the way life is.
Raptlvr Im not interested in getting into an arguement over what you are not saying, or not slamming. beacuse you seem to not say and not slam alot of things. Just my 2 cents
This is an interesting statement Migsi, and i would like you to eleborate if you can. How were they able to determine that these fractures were from doing jump ups?... Ive heard of birds breaking legs batting from tethered perches, does that mean we should do away with the perch.
I'd be glad to elaborate. Thanks for asking.
The **St. Louis rehab conference presenter was from the **Raptor Center. The center's vets had heard about, and seen, an increase in vertical long bone fractures in falconry birds and bumblefoot lesions directly related to jump ups (the falconers gave complete histories). The vertical hairline stress cracks up and down the long bones (and bumblefoot) were the result of the numerous hard landings when returning to their perches during frequent and rigorous jump up sessions.
As a falconer-rehabber, I've treated perch-related leg breaks in more than one falconer's bird - and a bird of my own. I've treated leg breaks in falconers' birds which occurred while hunting (slamming the ground, hitting pipe edges, etc). From my experience, these usually present as lateral breaks (horizontal, across the long bone), not as vertical fractures.
I absolutely would never put a bird in unnescessary risk, but a few jump ups to build strength, i think is hardly that, especially when i see my pmrt come out of a soar and slam into the ground, fall off a cliff and roll 10 ft, only to hop up again and put an end to a rather clever bunnys life.
I'm sure you would never knowingly do ANYTHING to harm your bird.
Unforseen stuff happens in falconry which is often beyond our control. However, the potential for injuries related to jump ups and leg weighting IS known, and IS within our control.
As with anything, use your own judgment. I'm merely relating what I learned some years ago from the medical professionals.
**CORRECTIONS: The conference was in Chicago - the Illinois Veterianry Association's annual conference in 1995. We were invited as speakers by the then-President of IVA, Dr. Sam Ristich. Dr. Elizabeth Stone presented the radiographs. (Thanks, Greg, for making me refresh my senior memory. )
Thanks Migisi. They shoulda been using a padded carpet or something,, For every falconry bird that was injured from doing simple jump up excercises there was probably 10,000 that were not. Just like for every tethered bird that was injured, there was probably 10,000 that were not. I think the list can go and on, but the point of it all is to gather the knowledge and make the decision thats right for you.
Modoc No one was arguing with you, but, obviously you don't have any studies to back up the idea that weight training helps at all. This is an open forum to express your opinions and thats all I did. This topic has been discussed on several forums and always with mixed opinions. Some falconers swear by weight training, others are of the opinion that its not necessary. The bottom line is that you are going to do what you think is best for your bird and I am going to do the same. No need to argue.
Let me redirect you to Yarakone's first post where he brought his 20 year old female redtail back into peak physical shape after weight training and a bout with WNV.
Why would you want to redirect to anything. Who's to say that it was the weight training that brought the 20 year old back into shape or the actual flying. My eagle almost died from asper, even having to go through surgery along with the nebulizer chamber for 30 days. Flying him at game brought him back to full strength. So which way is the right way? Don't have time to sit and watch someone else play golf. I have better things to do in my life that actual deal with me and my family, not someone else. Get a life.
Im sure its real tough Raptlvr to be a master falconer with decades in the sport to come onto an apprentice forum and wave your gloved hand and post your dry and bitter statements at all the new apprentices. I think you were proven wrong on another thread and its just eating you up. If i was a master and had as many years in the sport as you and i chose to navigate through apprentice forums i would do it to help people, not to preach.
Modoc, well this is turning into another you and me thing. What forum are you referring to that I was proven wrong on? How could anyone prove I am wrong on my own personal feelings toward weight training. As I said before, this is an open forum for discussion. This is not the only forum I am on and all the forums have apprentices on them. I never claimed to know it all and hopefully I am still learning. If you don't like what I write or you think its too advanced for an apprentice, then don't read or reply to it. More than half the people on this site are no longer apprentices so by your standards, they should keep their mouth shut and let the newbe's answer all the questions. Do your thing with your bird and I will do the same, but, don't try to censor me in any way. Thats not how this forum works. I'll stop waving my glove as you put it and you ,for lack of better judgement, can call me ignorant again because I don't think like you on the subject matter.
Whatever .. I just viewed your last 100 posts and couldnt find one where you encouraged an apprentice, or offered some help. if you view a master falconer like yaraks last 100 posts,, its a whole different ballgame...
Why would you want to redirect to anything. Who's to say that it was the weight training that brought the 20 year old back into shape or the actual flying. My eagle almost died from asper, even having to go through surgery along with the nebulizer chamber for 30 days. Flying him at game brought him back to full strength. So which way is the right way? Don't have time to sit and watch someone else play golf. I have better things to do in my life that actual deal with me and my family, not someone else. Get a life.
Just an observation from a neutral party but I read your eagle logs religiously and most of the time your eagle missed or didn't quite catch up to the rabbits and then you brought him in to a carcass. Who's to say if you had done some weght training maybe some of those rabbits would have been caught? You mentioned that he was brought back to full strength by flying him on game but who's to say it was really full strenght?
Modoc, I am not Yarak. Thats the difference. I am not on this forum to teach anyone anything. I am still learning so how can I teach what I don't know. Its not my job or responsibility to teach on this forum. Dave, my eagle has caught game on many occassions. I flew him for a while here in New Mexico and then he came down with something to where I had to force feed him. His weight got down to 5 lbs 13 ozs and I really didn't think he was going to make it. This is a year or so after going through the surgery for Asper and surviving that. He is now back to normal and I have just been too lazy to get him going again. As I said before,I don't think weight training is necessary. I am sure if I read most of the other falconers log on this forum that there are many an occassion that they don't catch game and are either brought back to the lure or to the glove. This doesn't meant that their bird is out of shape, it means it didn't catch game. You should know that many hard spectecualr flights are made without catching the game. All the weight training and for that matter natural flights to build muscle and get the bird in shape is not going to guarentee a catch on every flight. I have been out in the field with FalconBoy and his falcon {Goose} who could stay on the wing for an hour to an hour and a half and still not catch a rabbit. His bird was in great shape, might I add without weight training or jump ups and a lot of the times we would come home empty handed. I'll ask you {Dave} the same thing I asked Modoc, show me some evidence or clinical research that actually shows that weight training works. Not some falconers opinion, hard evidence.
Jim, I know that that catching game isn't guaranteed every time. I was just tossing the question out there that it's possible that "extra" training, being with the launcher leash or jump-ups could maybe make the difference in some chases. Common sense says that weight training or jump-ups would put a bird in better shape, just like it does with people. If I would lift weights, or put weights on my ankles and jog I would end up in much better shape than I am now. You know as well as I do that there are no studies out there on this, but it's just too logical to say that it doesn't help. It's easier for me to believe yarakone, who has used weight training on a 20 yr old bird who he knows quite well than to believe that weight training is useless just because someone who has never tried it says so. Now if you had tried it and then your opinion was that it didn't make a difference then I would be more inclined to think that it had lesser merit. Is it necessary? Probably not. Does it make a bird stronger, faster and in better shape? Most likely. As for the injury issue, Migisi has good info but I really don't see the jump-ups as being the problem as much as the way they are done by having the bird fly back down to a rigid perch. Now, get off your butt and get that eagle log fired up again. (and that kick-a$$ camera you have) ;D