Post by Master Yarak on Mar 18, 2007 13:31:26 GMT -5
I know very little about training hunting dogs. My late grandfather raised GSPs. He trained exclusively for gun dogs on upland game. This was in the early part of the 20th century. He sold dogs to hundreds of people. He did field trials and only sold proven dogs. They brought top dollar and only those that were well off could afford them. He did this for many years. I never really learned his techniques or methodology. I know he NEVER used a shock collar. He might have had they been available it might have the training easier, I don't know. It can be done and therefore not a necessity. I am considering one for my big brute his off lead recall is terrible. Yarak
If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music he hears, however measured or far away
I would have imagined that back in the days of your grandfather, shock collars were probably pretty expensive. I am not saying that they are for all dogs, but, I know without one my dogs would probably be missing out there. I spoil my dogs and I know its not for lack of attention. They live and sleep inside the house and i can let them out in my front yard without them taking off down the street. But, when I get them out in the field, they are different animals. Just like you train a bird on the creance at the house and then take them out to the field. Totally different bird. Now if I wasn't flying the bird and could keep my attention on them all the time, then I might be able to keep them close by verbal commands.. The whole purpose is to have the dogs and bird work together, at least in my case.
* I forgot to mention that I probably know even less than you do about training hunting dogs. I have always had dogs and none of them have been professionaly trained. Just the back yard stuff.
Last Edit: Mar 18, 2007 14:04:44 GMT -5 by raptrlvr
Post by Master Yarak on Mar 18, 2007 14:29:39 GMT -5
Same way here, dogs are inside and each have their own bed. The big dog (Bauer) does great on lead but once off he gets over stim'd by the sights and smells of the forest on off he goes. Oblivious to all but his most primitive drives. He always comes back breathing as though he ran the entire time away. He usually muddy and always wet. He is a family member. Only the very best diet for both him and Charlotte's GSD (Shadow). She stays in the yard and recalls like a champ. Both dogs were rescued, the shepherd has ACK papers and was pound bound when Char intervened. Her only complaints with the dogs is the dog hair and the fact they follow you everywhere you go, all the time inside as though they are attached to us physically. Bauer is a large dog. He is 28.5" at the shoulder and weighs just over 100#s. He is Black Lab X maybe Akita or Dane. They are both wonderful animals and a joy to be around. Gary stayed with us for the meet and got a few visits in the night by Bauer I guess he was just checking to make sure he was OK. They became fast friends. Yarak
If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music he hears, however measured or far away
My opinion about shock collars is that if the trainer is competent, it is not needed. There are other ways to obtain the same results, but the trainer has to be aware of these technics and master them.
Bob Bailey, the best and most renowned animal trainer if there is one, has trained over 150 000 animals of more than 50 species for the army. He kept log files for each animal. He was allowed to use wathever technic he wanted, cruelty was condoned as long as results were there. He trained cats to go through a battlefield, enter a building by ventilation conduits and record conversations with a mircophone. Trained pigeons to take pictures with a camera on their neck. Dolphins to come back after 5 days free in the ocean. Etc.
In all these 150 000 animals, he used only positive reinforcement as it was the most efficient technic in terms of results. He reverted to punition only 5 times, and it was because the client didn't gave him the choice, they wanted him to use punition. The 5 animals were dogs trained to cross a field mine, were the mines were controlled by fine metallic wires just 4 inches off the ground, so the soldiers would trip over the wire and the mine explods. The dogs were first trained to cross this kind of field without touching the wire with only positive reinforcement, only rewards. Then, they added electric shocks provided by the wires themselves to strongly punish the dogs that touched the wire. Results: the animals never did touched the wires. Never. They have had to physically push them to make them receive that shock. How efficient is this kind of training now?
More: a study conducted in Oxford last year demonstrated that if a human is strongly convinced that another human did something wrong, and that secund human receives a punition, the first human pleasure centers in the brain are activated. Inconsciously, we feel pleasure if punition is applied to someone we believe was acting wrongly. It is easily transferrable to dogs... How difficult can it be to leave a training technic that brings pleasure to the trainer, even if this pleasure is unconscious? I guess it explains why most trainers using punition defend their technics with so much vigor, they don't want to be deprived of them.
If the trainer knows how to do, he can easily avoid the use of ecollars.
Post by Falcon Boy on May 12, 2007 10:04:16 GMT -5
While you may not liek the use of shock collars and not feel they are needed, not everyone has the understanding of animal behavoir that you do. When used properly, i see no problem with them. If abused, that is a completly different story.
Falcon Boy Apprentice Falconry Administrator
Ethics make the individual, not the other way around.
I would be willing to bet that there are more people who use Ecollars than those who don't. It just amazes me that "behavior specialist" know it all. Every animal is different and yet you have mastered tham all. Maybe I should use a clicker on them and see what happens. From all indiciataions they would be in the next state by the time they responded to your training methods. Sounds like another Morgan to me.
I would be willing to bet that there are more people who use Ecollars than those who don't. It just amazes me that "behavior specialist" know it all. Every animal is different and yet you have mastered tham all. Maybe I should use a clicker on them and see what happens. From all indiciataions they would be in the next state by the time they responded to your training methods. Sounds like another Morgan to me.
To my knowledge, a discussion board such as this one is to share, share experience, knowledge. Not to insult. Your level of experience and results with your birds are outstanding. I would expect more than mean personnal attacks from someone like you, I would expect a developped opinion based on facts. It's not because you don't master a training technic that this technic is wrong. You do what works for you, you don't have to change if you don't want to, and if you don't have problems with a technic, that is fine. But it is important to be aware that problems do indeed happen with these tools and any punitive training system, denying their existence would be as stupid as denying the link between cigarette and lung cancer. Then, when you know what risks are involved, you can choose the training technic you prefer because you are fully informed.
A part of my job is to work with crazy dogs, dogs seriously gone wrong that are on the verge of being euthanized, and I see plenty of them that developped major behavior problems because of the traditionnal, punitive training technics, including shock collars. If you take the time to read through the scientific articles I posted on my previous message, then you can understand why these punitive technics are frowned upon by most serious dog trainers. Not because they don't work, but because the common dog trainer can cause major problems to a dog's psyche when using these devices. On the other hand, the worst problems happening with R+ technics when the trainers don't know how to use them properly are a happy, obese dog that knows nothing.
Everything I hold in my hands today could be only a memory tomorrow. Carpe Diem.
What you expect is not what you always get. If you have ever watched any field dog competitions you will see that most hunting dog trainers use Ecollars. How many hunting dogs have you trained. How many hunting birds have you trained? You quote or use other sources to try and highlight what you are trying to feed the group. Speak from your own personal experiences, that will be more receptive to the group. Several on this group have tried to figure out where you are coming from or where you are going and they have tried to tell you THIER personal experiences, not what someone else has done. Last time I checked, I didn't have to train my dog to cross{Bob Bailey} a mine field. What I tell you is what I have done, not what someone else has done. Not that what I have done is right or the only way, but, it has worked for me.
The converse of this statement is that anyone who uses a shock collar is incompetent. Maybe that's not what you meant, but that's what you said and most likely why people took offense. A lot, and I mean A LOT of hunters use shock collars. That doesn't mean that everyone abuses them.
How difficult can it be to leave a training technic that brings pleasure to the trainer, even if this pleasure is unconscious? I guess it explains why most trainers using punition defend their technics with so much vigor, they don't want to be deprived of them.
Funny how right this statement of hers was and the comments that followed.
Let me be the first to say I take pleasure in knowing that I can affect my dog from afar when hes misbehaving.
My old dog, Kate(coon-hound), was a great dog, with the exeption that she'd occasionally wander off. Boy, maybe a few zaps from a shock collar might have saved her from getting squished one day by the Scotts Lawn Care truck.
My new dog, Sadie(black lab) HAD the same problem, UNTIL we got her a shock collar.
It's not that I enjoy tying her up in the lkawn during parties to see how loud she'll yelp.-It may have even save her life, now what's incompetent about that.
I had to get a "no-bark" shock collar for Bayli. The neighbor was complaining that he couldn't even go out in his backyard without her going crazy. I keep it on a low setting and the little tingle she gets when she "forgets" not to bark in the back yard keeps her in line. I also have a little shock collar that I got to help break her off of running deer. I haven't needed it yet, but I am willing to use it if necessary, after I try the "running her down and scolding her" approach.
Kitana, I am quite sure that punishing my dog brings me NO pleasure, and instead heartbreak, I only punish my dog when it is a serious danger to her Health (chasing cars, and biting.) I personally see no reason for a shock collar, perhaps it would make my dog more responsive, but I find dogs respond better to treats then any negative treatment (I have not tried a shock collar.)
Wolf said,"Let me be the first to say I take pleasure in knowing that I can affect my dog from afar when hes misbehaving." I find that comment slightly cruel taking pleasure in shocking a dog... what if your girlfriend put a collar around your neck and whenever you reached for the Twinkie it Zapped you and then she Laughed... not saying that dogs and humans are the same, just pointing out that it is somewhat cruel, and although it is ultimately better then getting killed or hurt. positive enforcement is I believe a better way of doing it.
That being said... I am starting to get sold on a shock collar I couldn't bear losing the peoples princess. (Diana) and maybe a little shock would help her learn her moving vehicles lessons before she gets injured.
"The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph." -Thomas Paine
"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? -Marianne Williamson