well i guess we have to agree to dissagere bob. I tink those collars are punishment. BTW a lot of experts define punishment differently. what it comes down to for me is this.
Training a raptor using ONLY positive re-enforcement. I don't see how a dog is different? Why use a shock collar when one isn't needed? You can train it exactly the way we would train a raptor and get the same results.
Dogs are social animals while Raptors are solitary.
I am not arguing that only positive reinforcement doesn't work. In fact, there is data supporting the fact that positive reinforcement is retained much longer than negative...
But I believe that the above sentence is the crux of the issue.
If you are training a dog not to sit on the couch do you just tell him NO!!! Or do you have to sometimes resort to punishing him with a swat of a news paper? Either way its still negative teaching. One is more human the other is more of a severe punishment. Personally I wound tell the dog NO but if worst comes to worst and the dog does not listen to the NO than I may have to resort to a light swat of the newspaper. I think that people sometimes don't take the first step by telling the dog no and just swat it (very wrong) and in other cases just resort to the shock collar because it corrects bad behavior quickly. They may not have the time to practice only Positive re-enforcement (still wrong). Just my personal thought.
"You're a smart kid Johny, you really are, but as long as I'm around you'll only be second best." The Godfather
If done correctly, positive re-enforcement works just as well as aversive training. Saying that because a dog is social and aversion training WORKS with them, that we should?? So if it worked with raptors you would think it ok to use it on raptors too? How about your kids? "Bobby eat your greens or daddy is going to press the button."
I think if you have to resort to a swat with a newspaper you should train yourSELF in animal training more, intsead of punishing the dog.
Now im not some bunny hugging peta nazi, but i think its hypocritical to say its ok to use aversion training on dogs but not on raptors simply because it doesn't work on raptors.
And for those that aren't sure what aversion training is...
Simply stated, You are telling the dog that if the dog does something you don't like, he is going to recieve a physical stimuli that the dog doesn't like. He is doing what you ask to AVOID that stimuli he doesn't like.
Im not saying this to piss people off or attack. Simply to get you to re asses your views on any kind of aversive training to your animals.
Positive Re-enforcement WORKS. This forum is full of all the testimonials of it working on raptors. Why stop using it on dogs?
Because dogs and raptors are very different. Do you weigh your dog every day? I certainly hope not. Dogs are more social, loving and understanding. If a dog realizes that you don't want it to do something than it won't. But getting the point accross to the dog is a different story. With raptors we use positive re-enforcement because thats what works, with dogs you can use "averision taining" because it works. Dogs learn quickly, and teaching a leason a quick as possible is sometimes the best method (for the safty of the dog and yourself).
I had a case where we took my dog Tucker hunting. We were in a large sage field. She happend to stumble upon a porkypine. Bad news. The only way we could get the dog away from the porkypine was to use the shock collar other wise she very well could have been hurt. I don't believe in overuse of the collar but in tight situation it can be a good thing to have around. I don't abuse the fact that I control the collar. I let the dog control it. I use it as a method of avoiding bigger problems.
"You're a smart kid Johny, you really are, but as long as I'm around you'll only be second best." The Godfather
Would you do the same if it was a 5 year old child trying to hug the porqupine? Or would you run up and pick it up and say NO?
"Because it works." Is a horrible reason to use it. A cattle prod would work. Besides, why would you take a dog hunting if it couldn't heal? This just shows the lack of training the dog had if you had to continually SHOCK it to get it way from something interesting to it.
I really am amazed at that story. It saddens me that you feel the way you do.
*EDIT* And your comparison of dog and raptor in relation to weight training is moot. If a dog required weight management for training then yes, people would weigh their dogs. However it is not a requirement to get a dog to respond to training. Such as aversion training is not a requirement either.
Oh, and i have yet to meet the dog that is "understanding." They don't do what you want because they understand you. They do it because they know that if they do, they will get a treat, or in the case of your dog, a zap around the neck. They don't do anything out of love of the person. They may love you, but they aren't going to sit and heal because they love you. They do this because they are trained to.
In the case of my dog, she was a young puppy being trained to hunt while being on the hunt with more experienced dogs. They tend to pick things up earlier if they are taken into the feild with other dogs. The shock collar is there to avoid a huge problem. Do I shock my dog if she doesn't do what I say? NO!!! But in the event that something does go terrebly wrong yes. Persay your Pit Bull bites someone and won't let go are you just going to go over and say No? I don't think so.
Before I ever put a collar around a dogs neck I test the shock on myself to make sure that it won't hurt it. I don't know if you have ever put a battery on your tongue as a kid but the feeling is much the same. The shock in no way hurts the dog, it is just something that is different. My dog is now trained than when the collar is on, it means show time. In fact she becomes excited when it is put around her neck. She UNDERSTANDS that she is going to have a good time. It also pleases her to do as she is trained. She enjoys being out doors hunting with me and UNDERSTANDS that if she behaves than she will have fun too. My dog in no way hates or fears the collar. This is through good training and underuse you might say of the collar.
Now Ooby I understand where you are coming from. I HATE the obuse of shock callors I find it completely unesseccery. But if used in an appropriate manner they can and will keep your dog and other safe.
"You're a smart kid Johny, you really are, but as long as I'm around you'll only be second best." The Godfather
I agree with you. It will do all that you say. Never have i said they don't work.
What im saying is that they are not needed. Why use it when other methods that don't require it, and work just as well? Again i liken it to training your kids. I always think of training animals to training a person. Sure there are many differences, but the basics are the same. Would you like it if your teacher shocked you in class every time you answered something wrong, or just looked at you and shook his head no, indicating you need to answer differently?
I am getting all of my information from books written by professional dog trainers. I have never trained a dog and cannot speak from experience. But look at how many people train animals with OUT using aversion training. Basically ALL birds. Marine mammels, ALL kinds of cats. Really the only animals i know of that you CAN use it on are dogs. Because they are so damn social. But that doesn't mean its right.
If you are worried about your dog being in a "dangerous situation" as you describe, don't let the dog get in that situation. Its the same as falconry. You set your bird up to succeed by giving it slips it can take easily at first. If your dog is unable to heel on command every time, that is something that should be mastered before it is put in the field to learn other more advanced things. Basic obiedience is first; foundational. Especially in a hunting dog. You put the dog and others at risk by not having a dog that obeys without question first.
And that thing about a pit bull with a shock collar. I havn't met the pit bull alive that would let go of an agreesive bite for anything short of a beating, and even then i doubt it.
Right or wrong its your dog you do what you like. I will still attempt to dissuede people from using them. And when i see a dog with a shock collar on i think one thing. Poor trainer. The people who really know what they are doing don't need or use one.
I have heard of numerous acounts of falconers and their bird getting into dangerous situations. For instance many falconers face the problem of rattle snakes. The same applies to dogs, unexpected things can and will happen. There is no way around it. I put myself at great risk hunting with other gun hunters. Anything can happen anywhere. The difference is how the situation is controlled.
About the dog untrained before going into the field. She was very thourghly trained with basic training before ever entering the field. But when a young dog finds itself face to face with another animal that poses a threat you can only expect its natural instincts to kick in. These natural instinct are hard to control. Again control is the main issue as well as safety. If and when a situation of this praportion arises it is the responsibility of the trainer to eleminate the situation as quickly as possible. I feel that I would rather give a light shock to the dog rather than have her impaled by poisones spikes.
I completely agree that basic training should never be excercised with a shock callor. You are correct in my opinion when you say "poor trainer". The basics of teaching a dog should always be through reward, but again in extreme situations the shock callor most often poses less of a threat than the action at hand. It is only valid if you see the trainer training the dog with the shock callor. It is incorrect to judge someones training ability due to the fact that their dog wears a shock callor. In many cases it is only there for the protection of the dog.
"You're a smart kid Johny, you really are, but as long as I'm around you'll only be second best." The Godfather
Again i do not agree. Your analogy does not hold water. Im not sure where i stand on the getting a raptor off a rattlesnake. By this i mean, most people will agree its nearly impossible to get a raptor to let go of food without offering it something else in return. The standard step off being an example. However i have read of experienced falconers training thier bird to step away from a kill before the falconer even gets there, in anticipation of the heart which the bird knows it will recieve when the falconer arrives. Hence a bird with a rattlesnake in its talons could easily be called off, or a lure thrown out. I am not sure how this would work, but i can garuntee you, no ammount of negative re-enforcement or aversive training will help in this situation.
HOWEVER, i have seen, many times in fact. A dog go after a rattlesnake, or a bobcat, or a coyote, and have the owner call out harshly and loudly. The dog stops and returns. No collar needed.
It is the exact same reaction as a dog that barks or attacks someone at your house. Would you expect to need a shock collar to stop your dog from attacking the mailman? I would hope not.
My statement about poor training stands IMO. It is a crutch, an abusive one in my opinion. It right up there with a choak collar, or electric fence.
Of course "no amount of negative re-enforcement" will cure this kind or any kind of situation with a raptor. They don't respond to negatice re-enforcment. And in the cases that they do they show worse behavior. Even police canine units exibit bad behavior. In one instance a police dog attacked and severely injuered and inoccent women. The dog put her in critical condition. No matter the amount of training even "good" dogs have the potential to lose their wits. You are correct in saying that a dog should be trained to "step away" from the problem, but different situations do arise that are unexpected. Sure you hear a falconers that train their birds to "step away" from rattle snakes, but that is because they are specificly trained for that one situation. Being in the outdoors provides an unlimited veriety of dangerous situations that are best delt with quickly. Grabbing your child away from an imposeing porqupine is much the same as giving the dog a little shock. If the dog learns that the shock means DANGER and not punishment then I feel that it is OK. Again quick response most often means less chance of the situation growing worse. Why do ambulances arive as quickly as possible? Simple, so that the situation does not escelate.
You just used an example of solving the problem by NOT using aversive training by picking your child up, but you won't do it with the dog..... No you gotta shock the dog. I still don't understand why. I personally think you are going off of information someone else you respect has told you. Because you are obviously getting the message, but you are unwilling to let go of the fact that you DON"T NEED IT!!! I seriously doubt that police dog would be affected by a shock collar if it was mauling some lady. I DEFINITELY know a pit bull wouldn't even notice it. And if it WAS enough to cause the required amount of pain to make them release thats punishment and the dog should not be working or near people if that much pain is required to control them.
You said that the shock collar being used warns of "danger" to the dog. READ A BOOK!!!!!!!!!! You can teach this very easily, and use a WORD, instead of this shock collar. It still amazes me that you can't see the holes in your arguements.
The fact is, whether you want to believe me or not. That collar gives the dog a sensation it DOES NOT LIKE!!! That is its only use, to provide discomfort to the dog. You are teaching it by saying that if the dog doesn't obey, you will do something it doesn't like. Might as well be waving a stick at it saying im gonna beat you if you don't listen to me. Because thats what it boils down to.
Thats what aversion training is. Its an "or else" way of training. Do this, or else. The else being something the dog doesn't like.
In no part of my last post did I ever say that the police dog was called off of the women with a shock callor I simply stated that some dogs to snap. Weather it be that they no longer listen to you, or in this cases cause serious damage. And about the dog and the baby. Would you like to aproach a nerves/scared dog and a porqupine. If so you got balls Ooby. "Read a book" In fact I do quite often. Reading has nothing to do with having your dog being preoccupied by an imposes danger. If the dog feels that its life is in danger. you might as well plan on your training to out the window.
Of course the callor makes the dog feel uncomfertable!!! No duh. It is something the dog is not used to. When was the last time you heard of a dog stick its paw in an electrical outlet? The sensation is different for any species even humans. You stated that you have never trained a dog. So when you do Ooby, you let me know. And maybe you can take it to the zoo too and see how well your dogs behavior is exibited towards and angry porqupine.
"You're a smart kid Johny, you really are, but as long as I'm around you'll only be second best." The Godfather
I can only pity you. And your dog even more. Let me know how it works out when you graduate to a cattleprod. Hell, one good zap deserves another right? I doubt northwoods sells shock collars in raptor sizes, but you seem to know best, maybe you can convince em.
You seem to know better than world renoun dog trainers like karen pryor and jean donaldson. People who have trained a wider variety of animals than years you have been alive. These are the two sources i have been basing my posts off of. Karens books "Don't shoot the dog" which has been mentioned on this site by people other than me as a great book for dog training has also been mentioned in many falconry publications. But what do they know right?
I know i threw some sarcasm in here, and you kind of deserve it. I seriously tried to show you the other side, but i guess i turned out "holier than thou" as usual.
I have somewhat paraphrased this whole arguement to my girlfriend who is sitting here, and read her your entire last post. She unlike me, has vast experience training many types of animals. From exotics, to birds, to domestic dogs. She agrees with me that if your dog does not behave when in a dangerous situation. Your dog should not be allowed into a dangerous situation. She also noted that the dog won't know that porcupines are dangerious untill he gets a quill in the nose. Oh BTW porcupine quills are not poisoness. And they are not "shot" out by the porcupine. Again she notes that porcupines are DEFENSIVE, not OFFENSIVE. Any dog with proper training can be quickly heeled in, and be in no danger at all.
"If he is not trained well enough, he should not be off lease." Verbatim from someone who has been in animal training for over 20 years.
"Has he heard of the LEAVE IT, command? A common command that is used to make your dog leave whatever its attention is on." More from an expert.
I asked her what she figured your dog was getting from what you described, and the short answer is that you are most likely just distracting the dog. The dog isn't learning to return to you in a dangerous situation. The dog won't learn when to return to you in a dangerous situation unless you are ONLY using this collar in a dangerous situation. You are basically confusing it.
Through positive re-enforcement you could teach the dog to "leave it" "heel" and many other things. I certainly hope you do some research on this, and if i were you i would keep your dog away from free ways, train tracks, and anything else dangerous.
And oh btw. My girlfriend was part of a training team that trained a labrador with a cheetah for a partner. This dog i can GARUNTEE was trained solely with positive re-enforcement. He was regularly walked through out a zoo and was taught just what i said earlier. LEAVE IT, and HEEL. It can be done. Your excuses do not hold water, and i still say someone who needs a shock collar to train thier dogs would be better suited to study up on positive re-enforcement.
My statement about poor training stands IMO. It is a crutch, an abusive one in my opinion. It right up there with a choak collar, or electric fence.
I agree that most people use choke collars the wrong way. I use a pinch collar. I wonder if you think this is in-humane also...
- There are times when a negative correction is needed to back up the positive reinforcement. For example a puppy running out into the road (and could get hit by a car). What about a child doing the same thing.
Are you one of those people who don't believe in spanking their child?
I whole heartedly agree that positive reinforcement should form the basis of training, but there are times where negative reinforcement will save the life of your kid or dog. Yes you could try to train them to avoid running into the street...
If you have kids... or when... Wait till they're teenagers, then you will understand.
I for one will spank my kid if they do something that endangers their life, or my dog for that matter... (You should see some of the messed up kids I see whose parents never discipline them). Honestly I believe that there are certain times where it is warranted and useful to back up your words.
While most of this post was about kids, I believe the same applies to dogs. If I was going to go out where there are Rattlesnakes and I had a shock collar, I would find a snake (not necessarily a poisonous one) and let the dog get close and then zap the hell out of it. Then try again the next day, until the dog will remember... (all I want is to teach it is avoidance behavior!)
Why do this? We'll no matter what your best intentions are there "could" be a time where you will be away from your dog when it encounters a poisonous snake. This training session which some people find in-humane "could" save the dogs life. I would rather be in-humane then have my dog killed by a snake or run over by a car...
You might think: Why would you not be right next to your dog at all times?
Well that’s great to think about and discuss, but it is not exactly real.
[glow=purple,2,300](I am asking if i got the gist of it) Postive reinforcement is the wat to goo however using negative reinforcemnet is a way to get her back on track. I mean, dog digs a hole, spank her send her to her dog house. Positive reinformcement is when she does something right, sitting correctly and still she ets a "good girl Cookie" and a pat on the head. ~Wasn't that what we had before? [/glow]
Never settle.
"There's nothing like the feeling of knowing that you've made a difference in someone's life, even if that difference is a lifetime of nightmares and a fortune in therapy bills." - Marilyn Manson