Swollen Foot

Raptor Health and Managment » Injuries, Sickness, and Treatment » Swollen Foot
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Swollen Foot
Post by birdguy888 on Jan 12, 2007, 3:06am

Let's see what everyone can offer here. My little musket has a horribly swollen foot. When I trapped him he had what I thought was a scab on his left first toe but after soaking it in peroxide for a few seconds it stopped fizzing so I peeled it off. It was merely a piece of meat that had dried at the base of the talon while touching the flesh of the toe. Well, now the toe is all swollen and red and the ball of the foot and the top is extremely swollen and warm to the touch. There was NO wound at that time. It is not bumblefoot because there is no black spot or scab. I have had him on an antibiotic and I have been rubbing Prepration H cream on his toe and foot. It has antibiotics in it also and it has ingredients to help stop swelling but the foot is now bigger. The swelling is soft to the touch and not hard as in typical swelling. Any recommendations or ideas? If it is not better by Monday I will take him to my avian vet on Tuesday. I would go sooner but he doesn't work on weekends or on Mondays.

Re: Swollen Foot
Post by yarak2 on Jan 12, 2007, 9:13am

I would cease with any topical application. I would start hydrotherapy now. If you can't control the swelling you are in the hurt locker. I don't think it was impact trauma but more likely circulatory. At this point your guess is better than mine. Regardless, the hydrotherapy will help with the blood flow and could prove beneficial in reducing the swelling.
Good luck and please keep us informed.
Yarak

Re: Swollen Foot
Post by rage on Jan 12, 2007, 4:45pm

deffinatly an infection of some sort is in there that is the warm that you are feeling. if it feels like a puss filled foot id say to lance it with a needle and see if it drains any fluids . like yarak says id stop any topical meds. it is possible that the peroxide caused this issue. if there was something under the flesh just behind the tallon under the cuticle the peroxide could have agravated it. peroxide destroys living tissue, id never use it. coarse you might know that as i think i remember you said you have a medical background. if you do lance the toe and it does drain fluids it might do you some good to make a small insision and waSH!@T multiple times a day to keep it open so that anything that wants to flush out can.

I worked with a couple vets as a vet tech for 5 years that specialized in birds. and that would be my best guess.

good luck

Re: Swollen Foot
Post by birdguy888 on Jan 12, 2007, 5:03pm

I was thinking of draining it if possible. It doesn't feel like puss and is not discolored, rather it is soft and highly movable/pliable as if it is a water filled boil in the foot. It would almost remind me of blain, a puss filled boil of the second joint of the wing minus the puss and on the foot instead. I originally wasn't going to use peroxide because of it destroying living tissue as well but I figured if it was an open wound from a starling bite, alcohol would be horribly painful so I errored on the side of less pain for the bird.

Re: Swollen Foot
Post by tiercel78 on Jan 12, 2007, 8:00pm

I wouldn't suggest lancing the wound to see if anything drains out. That will invite infection. I will agree with Yarak on the Hydro therapy. Warm water over the foot for as log as the bird will take it. You can also try a Plastic wrap and get a paste from your vet called Magna paste. It's a gel that smells like winter green and has Epsom salt in it. This is the stuff I just got while back in TX from a Raptor Vet that has me using it on my HH's foot. Her swollen toe feels like what you are describing with your musket. That will cause the area to heat up and push that mushy stuff toward the surface. If the bird picks at the wrap then use it without and put it on after the bird eats.
Another thing you can try is a homeopathic drug called Ledum that was suggested to me by another vet that is a falconer. You can buy it at any sun Harvest but I would have to get you in contact with him for dosage after you got the stuff.

I would try to stay away from the peroxide. I have heard nothing but bad things like it actually pushing debris farther down into the wound. Almost any of that cleaning stuff will kill new cell growth if left on. The best that I have heard of from trusted raptor vets is Betadine or Xenidine(sounds like that) even that stuff you should rinse after you disinfect. Then a nice topical ointment should be applied after. Then I don't apply again routinely till you have a nice scab over the area

Re: Swollen Foot
Post by rage on Jan 12, 2007, 8:34pm

I didnt say to lance it first. i said that it may be useful to lance with a needle first. if fluid came out then it might be good to do a bigger lance to help draining continue. either way is fine, i just know that if it is an infection brewing in there you might want to drain it. coarse that is a classic western medicin and that is in no way better than the homeopathic eastern medicin.

It is your bird and decision Eddie. Its alot like this forum when it comes to advice on your birds, you have to take what you get from it and use what you believe to be the best for your situation.

Note: In no way T78 is this post meant molicious or intended offensive.

Re: Swollen Foot
Post by tiercel78 on Jan 12, 2007, 9:54pm

Actually Rage I didn't even see your post for some reason. I wouldn't take offensive to anything you posted. I have my ways just as others have theirs. I received my experience from time at a Bird of Prey rehab center with a awesome raptor Vet (in my eyes). The homeopathic stuff is from a newer vet that a trusted friend/falconer deals with (that Vet is also a falconer). He is really into that Eastern medicine and my friend has used it with great success with his birds.
My reasoning is that with out having the bird on some kind of antibiotics I wouldn't open anything up on such a small bird. If it hurts or she starts picking at it then he is in trouble. I have seen Merlins eat toes off from injury. That may not happen but.. then again It might. Me personally, I would try the less invasive things first
Anyways the injury could have been from almost anything on a bird that small. She could of bruised/fractured a joint on a bate or maybe even sprained the toe while he was treating it the first time. The swelling after the fact and with no apparent wound would lead me to believe that. Those feet and toes are tiny and can sustain a injury pretty easy. Best bet is to get a x-ray of that foot just to make sure.

Re: Swollen Foot
Post by birdguy888 on Jan 12, 2007, 9:56pm

I'll actually check it tonight but just looking at it without picking him up it looks as if 1/2 of the swelling has gone away. Last night it was super swollen, even the top of the foot. I have never seen anything like this in my falconry career or in the several years of raptor rehab. I've been checking thoroughly every night for any dark scab to indicate bumblefoot but there is no spot so I'm 99% positive it is not bumblefoot but definately some type of infection. I presume the little piece of meat that he didn't get off of his talon began to rot and it infected the tissue subqutaneously.

Re: Swollen Foot
Post by tiercel78 on Jan 12, 2007, 10:00pm

If you really think it's a infection I would administer antibiotic like Baytril. If that food on the talon cause it I would be shocked to all hell. I wouldn't think that would happen on a bird that is bound to get meat residue on it's feet. It couldn't of been that big so I figure at the most it would of just dried out. Course... I don't know everything.
I wouldn't think that is was bubble foot either. I have never seen that just pop up over night. I have however seen it form without a scab due to bad perching or birds that have had a history of having it before. All the bubble that I have seen is not real mushy/soft. The Bubble that I have seen has felt mushy but, actually feels thicker/stiff to me. I have seen surgerys done that that stuff was removed and it was like a stiff cottage cheese like stuff. Also I have only seen bubble form on the bottom of the foot with not much swelling on the top or down the toes.

Is he using the foot fine? Is he favoring at all.

Re: Swollen Foot
Post by birdguy888 on Jan 13, 2007, 3:24am

I started him on Baytril tonight. He's getting it IM OIDX5 days (it's a high dose). The whole foot is swollen and really gushy like it is full of water; it is real soft. even the top of the foot is swollen and only the furst toe. Toe 2 and 3 are fine. He is using the foot for perching and for eating so it doesn't seem to be affecting him. Just to make sure and to ensure his health I will take him to the vet anyway on Tuesday unless it maraculously goes away with the Baytril treatment.

Re: Swollen Foot
Post by jelly on Jan 20, 2007, 5:12pm

I actually have a couple questions. How is his foot looking now? Because when I read this and I think about the horse remedies (which when T78 mentioned Magna paste really reminded me) is that this would be a bog spavin. What was the conclusion just an infection? If so I still have another question since this stemmed.
Bog Spavin normally refers to fluid that swells up on the joints after extreme stress or injury. I know all mammals can get it, mostly you have to be prone to it due to conformation issues. It happens though when their is some sort of stress or even injury to the joint(or right above), it is mother natures way of trying to protect. The swelling though being joint fluid feels like water and if it is drained looks like water. The only way to really get rid of it is through poultice clays (to avoid wrapping) which is where the Magna paste comes in. That is miracle for joints, honestly when I have to go apply it(or any poultice for that matter) to my mom's horse my wrist will stop popping for the next week or more. When it swells though occasionally the area above it also swells because the blood is having a hard time getting through the swollen area.
So could birds get this? If they can, what is it called?

Re: Swollen Foot
Post by tiercel78 on Jan 20, 2007, 6:22pm

Jelly
Yes raptors do get it but I'm not sure what the term is for it. Actually that is why I'm using the MagnaPaste w/Epsom salt on Shadow (Hen Harris) . I had a Raptor Vet take x-rays and check the foot out to make sure the bones looked good. She gave me the Magna Paste with Epsom salt mix to apply on her foot for that squirrel bite she got awhile back. Swelling is going down but slowly.-Zach

Re: Swollen Foot
Post by birdguy888 on Jan 21, 2007, 12:56am

I was in the hospital and unable to take him to the vet. With the Baytril the swelling went down almost completely and lasted for a few days but this morning the foot was swelled up again and 3 times a big!!!! The entire foot is swollen, pad and top too. The first toe is also all swollen up but the others are not affected. My avian vet has emergency services on weekends so I'm calling tomorrow moring and taking him in. I started him on Carprofin today. It is a pain killer and anti-inflamatory and is extremely strong. He will litterally act like he is stoned out of his mind which is fine as long as he isn't in any pain. He has been lying on his stomach all day today but gets up and flies at the end of his leash, gets drings and then takes a bath. He then stands on his perch and dries out and then he lies down again. The good thing is he is still really active and he is still eating just fine. I fed him before he got the Carprofin; otherwise he would be too relaxed to eat and it decreases the appetite! I'll post again tomorrow with the results of my vet trip!

Re: Swollen Foot
Post by rage on Jan 21, 2007, 1:20am

isnt carprofin just like rimadyl? a NSAID used for dogs only from what i could tell. it couldnt be used on cats and i never heard of it used on birds. well.. news to me. you learn something every day.

Re: Swollen Foot
Post by birdguy888 on Jan 21, 2007, 2:25am

The only other pain med/anti inflamatory that I am aware of used on birds besides Carprofin is Metacam. Carprofin is our personal favorite though and we have had GREAT success with it. To give everyone an idea of what I'm dealing with, here are 3 pics I took of Bullet's swollen toe/foot:
[image]

Re: Swollen Foot
Post by birdguy888 on Jan 21, 2007, 4:07pm

This sucks. I cannot get into any avian vet here in Utah; they are all out of the office/town. There is only one left in Salt Lake City and I hate him and refuse to support his business. He is also the highest priced vet in the state and charges 3 times more than anyone else. The vet tech I spoke to is also a falconer here in Utah and I know her well. She said I was doing everything right and I'd have to wait a couple of days before the vets are back in the office!

Re: Swollen Foot
Post by jelly on Jan 21, 2007, 10:07pm

Humbug, thats no good. I am learning a great deal, so if you don't mind I have a few more questions.

Does Phenylbutazone (bute) not work? The thing to use with horses, and occasionally dogs. I know some humans use it as well for arthritis. In Texas you have to get it from a vet or order it from an out of state source but it is very attainable. To be honest, I do not know what makes it more favorable over other NSAIDs since it also causes ulcers, kidney damage and other gunk from prolonged use. It lowers white bloodcell count, which can lead to bone marrow shortages. I am not sure if that is a giant problem it isn't severe but if you are fighting off death it isn't the choice most people/vets make.
All I really know about Rimadyl is that every dog has a different reaction, extreme to extreme. Sometimes the miracle cure sometimes the cause of death. Again limited on my Metacam knowledge, I believe it is similar to Ibuprofen in the ways it works but I am not positive. how do they all compare? What makes one preferrable over the other? etc?
Again sorry for all the questions.

Re: Swollen Foot
Post by birdguy888 on Jan 21, 2007, 11:04pm

I have no idea about any of them. Two of my avian vets have been in practice for over 30 years each and keep up on their training by attending seminars and classes for avian and exotic species and my third vet has been in practice for about 7 years. All of them have specific meds they use and don't use any others because of the risks involved and on how good they work.

Re: Swollen Foot
Post by birdguy888 on Jan 25, 2007, 8:49pm

I finally got Bullet into the vet today. He has an absess in his foot caused by setpacemia. Jay drained it and got a lot of puss, fluid and tissue out of it and instead of doing blood work he swabbed the puss for a culture to find out exactly which organism has infected his foot. Since it did come from the rotting meat that was stuck on his talon right against the cuticle we all now know to keep the talons clean!!!! The bandage has to stay on his foot for several days and he will be on Baytril until the results of the culture come back at which time we may change antibiotics. Instead of an IM injection OID (once per day) he will be getting his Baytril orally TID (twice a day). Because he is so small the injections can
damage the breast tissue and also make it very sore since it will be a long term medication.

Re: Swollen Foot
Post by rage on Jan 25, 2007, 11:51pm

(did i say to lance it? not trying to be melicious but drainage could have helped from the beginning....)

Glad to hear that it should be getting better.. keep up the work..your bird will thank you will lots of kills later on.